Posted by speakup > 2023-07-30 13:09 | Report Abuse

As a shareholder of Icap, how to join Icap Fan Club?

Posted by thetruthseeker > 2023-07-31 21:36 | Report Abuse

ICAP's motion for leave to appeal to the Federal Court will be heard on 2023-08-02, this coming Wednesday. Will ICAP's battle against COL be stopped by the court for the one last time?

Will ICAP's NAV discount narrow further with the potential shift to a dividend-paying fund? What if it comes with a dividend reinvestment plan? Will COL be happy with this?

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-07-31 23:43 | Report Abuse

If leave to appeal to the Federal Court is not granted, will the company and COL be able to coexist? The company and its biggest shareholders cannot be at logger heads and a solution needs to be found.

Posted by RealValueInvestor > 2023-08-01 16:32 | Report Abuse

Is anyone else unimpressed with the flat NAV move from 18/7 to 26/7? Is it even correct? For comparison the FTSE Bursa Malaysia KLCI was up 3.3%!

Posted by RealValueInvestor > 2023-08-01 16:52 | Report Abuse

thetruthseeker where is the news about paying a dividend coming from?

Posted by Nepo > 2023-08-02 15:52 | Report Abuse

Very strong support..wondering who is supporting? Hopefully not ttb cronies🤣🤣🤣

Posted by thetruthseeker > 2023-08-02 19:01 | Report Abuse

“The Board of Directors wishes to announce that the Federal Court unanimously dismissed ICAP’s motion for leave to appeal to the Federal Court with costs of RM30,000.00 payable to CLIM. The Federal Court’s decision was on grounds that the matter did not meet the required threshold for conditions of appeal under the Courts of Judicature Act 1964.”

Posted by RealValueInvestor > 2023-08-02 19:22 | Report Abuse

https://www.bursamalaysia.com/market_information/announcements/company_announcement/announcement_details?ann_id=3374054

Hopefully the board and management of this fund will now stop spending time and money on fighting with their shareholders through the courts and will focus their energies on maximising shareholder value.

If they would like a hint, then the easy win is through taking action to substantially reduce the discount to NAV at which ICAP trades....

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-02 19:42 | Report Abuse

Since the legal action against COL is supposedly outside the "investment portfolio management" mandate given to Capital Dynamics, the board of directors will have to take full responsibility for pursuing this futile and expensive legal action. The awards of cost to COL are just nominal, compared to the company's own legal costs all the way from the SC, High Court, COA and now the Federal Court. Because the company's financial year end is in last May, the final costs can be buried until next year's financial accounts, like the previous dual listing expenses. Some people will need to be held accountable for this. Bear in mind that the interim injunction against COL came with the liability for potential damages, which in this case, is the loss of the opportunity of buying more shares while the share price was low. So this may not be the end of the story yet.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-03 02:26 | Report Abuse

I took the trouble to obtain copies of the submissions by counsels for both sides to the case to get a better understanding of the dispute. I wonder how many of the company directors have read through them to be better informed on the merits of their case?

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-03 02:44 | Report Abuse

@thetruthseeker I have already suggested the dividend with reinvestment plan here earlier: Are there other ways to narrow the price discount than the often suggested dividend payout, share buyback and liquidation? Yes, there is one cute little CEF listed in US Liberty All Star Growth fund (symbol ASG). It has managed to trade at a minimal price discount of around 2% with a neat little accounting trick of declaring an annual dividend/distribution of 10% of NAV via 4 equal quarterly payments, but payable only in shares. So nominally, there is a dividend yield of 10% to support the share price, which is higher than most other stocks in the market, but won't affect the AUM at all, i.e. no different than declaring a bonus issue. Because shares have no par requirement and company can return capital to shareholders any time, even though there is no profits for the year, the fund can still make a distribution nominally out of capital. The argument is that while the dividend is not in cash, investors can sell the dividend shares in the market and convert it to cash, and if the share price is close to NAV, the two are fungible, other than the small transaction cost of selling shares instead of banking in cash. So the fund manager is happy because there is no actual cash outflow from the fund and AUM remains unchanged, investors do not suffer steep discount like other funds, and the fund 'earns' a reputation as a solid dividend investment. Like they say, perception is everything, even though nothing has changed.

Posted by RealValueInvestor > 2023-08-05 00:00 | Report Abuse

@JohnD0ugh Re: "The explanation of icapital.biz Bhd's superior performance" It's very hard to objectively assess the fund manager's performance when the period's presented by the fund manager are so selective! Why choose to show numbers "for the two years ended 25 July 2023"? Where are the numbers for 1, 3 and 5 years? ,Why 25 July 2023?

Posted by Integrity. Intelligent. Industrious. 3iii (iiinvestsmart)$€£¥ > 2023-08-05 08:26 | Report Abuse

>>>
@JohnD0ugh Re: "The explanation of icapital.biz Bhd's superior performance" It's very hard to objectively assess the fund manager's performance when the period's presented by the fund manager are so selective! Why choose to show numbers "for the two years ended 25 July 2023"? Where are the numbers for 1, 3 and 5 years? ,Why 25 July 2023?
>>>

The recent selective performance of iCap for the last 3 years was not a honest way to talk about the performance of iCap. It is actually very misleading and an honest writer will not put too much into this way of thinking.

Better to do what Buffett has done in reporting the performance of Berkshire Hathaway.
On a yearly basis, Buffett provided performance of his company against a comparative index. Also, he provides the long term performance since inception.

Any investor will be able to gauge the performance of the fund better when it is reported the way Buffett does for Berkshire.

Posted by JohnD0ugh > 2023-08-06 15:37 | Report Abuse

First, icapital.biz Bhd has committed itself to a long-term investment objective. So, Capital Dynamics is never pressured by any kind of ranking among investment funds. Most funds pay their fund managers in terms of a certain percentage of assets under management plus performance fees if the NAV surpasses the previous high level.

This kind of compensation structure made fund managers biased towards building up the size of their portfolios by maximizing marketing efforts and taking asymmetrical risks, ie: fund managers will get paid a lot when the market is good, but never be punished when the market is bad.

Though Capital Dynamics is also paid based on its NAV, icapital.biz Bhd's close-end fund structure has not only alleviated incentive problems and improved corporate governance, but has also solved the inflow/outflow problems of open-end unit trust funds (UTFs).

Unlike those in UTFs or ETFs, investors in CEFs are also shareholders. As public listed companies, CEFs must hold annual general meetings (AGMs). Through these AGM or extraordinary general meetings (EGMs), investors or shareholders of CEFs can substantially influence the way the CEFs are run. They can nominate individuals to be appointed to the Board of Directors and determine who gets elected or rejected as directors as well as their fees.
The investors or shareholders can change the fund manager; they can also change the Constitution of the CEFs through AGM or EGM. No less importantly, it is much easier for investors of CEFs to terminate or wind up the fund than it is for investors of UTFs.

Although both funds can be wound up upon the occurrence of an Extraordinary Resolution passed at a general meeting or unitholders' meeting, it is in practice very difficult for the unit holders of UTFs to call for such meetings.

Nearly 1000 investors attended the 2017 AGM of icapital.biz Bhd, which lasted for a whole day. In an AGM, the share owners are able to voice their comments, raise questions and interact with the fund manager. In comparison, it is extremely difficult if not impossible for investors in a unit trust fund to have such an intimate avenue of communication with the fund manager.

Therefore, for shareholders or investors, CEFs are structurally far more democratic than UTFs or ETFs. This is an important value proposition of CEFs, as it means that shareholders or investors can better protect their interests.
In addition, the open-end structure of a UTF or OEF drags down the long-term performance. When the stock market is bullish, investors tend to flood new monies into the fund, and the fund needs to invest the monies received based on their investment mandate.

Thus, investors are 'forcing' the fund managers to invest, even when some of the shares are trading at high valuation. In a bear market, investors tend to panic and start redeeming or selling their units. Fund managers have no choice but to liquidate their portfolio to raise cash to pay the investors who sold or redeemed their units.

Thus, investors 'force fund managers to sell when the stocks may be trading at an attractive valuation. CEFs have the benefit of capital stability, which means there are no redemptions or subscriptions which would impact the fund.

The fund manager of a CEF can thus invest for the long term and also invest in attractive but less liquid securities, which explained the source of icapital.biz Bhd's superior performance.


i Capital Newsletter Volume 30 Issue 1 (www.icapital.biz)

Posted by RealValueInvestor > 2023-08-07 15:35 | Report Abuse

@ JohnDough "improved corporate governance". You are joking aren't you?

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-08 16:24 | Report Abuse

Is instructing the share registrar not to allow inspection of the share register without prior approval by the company management good corporate governance? Something to hide there?

Posted by RealValueInvestor > 2023-08-09 16:47 | Report Abuse

"CEFs are structurally far more democratic than UTFs or ETFs" Hmmm maybe, at least investors in an open ended vehicle or ETF can get their money back when they want at NAV!

Posted by RealValueInvestor > 2023-08-10 04:32 | Report Abuse

@dumbMoney surely that's illegal as well as incredibly poor corporate governance!

Posted by speakup > 2023-08-10 13:40 | Report Abuse

Wahhhh NAV now 3.56

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-11 01:28 | Report Abuse

@RealValueInvestor For something as simple as just inspecting a listed company's shareholders' list at its Registrar's office, one can usually just walk in during office hour, maybe after fixing a prior appointment with the person in charge to make sure that the person is available. But with iCap, it took me one whole week. Here is the chronology of events and correspondence:
Day 1 To Registrar: I am a shareholder of the above company through my broker XXX and would like to inspect
the shareholders’ list for my investment research. Can you please let me know when is a
convenient time to do so?
Day 2 To Registrar: Reminder: When can I inspect the shareholders' list? It is a statutory requirement that it is kept
and maintained at your office, available for inspection by members and non-members.
Day 5 From Registrar: Please note that the person in-charge shall revert to you in due course.
From Registrar: We have forwarded your request to the company for consent.
Will let you know the arrangement after they have revert back to us.
To Registrar: This is to confirm our meeting at your office this afternoon, where I repeated my request to
inspect the shareholders list for icapital.biz Bhd (the Company). You told me that you have
been instructed via email by the management of the Company not to accede to my request
without their consent, even though it is within my rights to do so. I am now putting on record
that your continued refusal of my inspection request is in gross violation of Sections 160(2)
and S359 of the Companies Act and Tricor, as agent, is liable to penalty under Section 161 of
the Act.
In view of the above, if I don't get a positive reply from you by 2 p.m. tomorrow, I shall assume
that you intend to continue in willful violation of the Act and I shall then act accordingly.
Day 7 From Registrar: You may come and inspect the Register at our office anytime today.
As you can see, I have to throw the books at them before they relent. So much for good corporate governance!

Posted by speakup > 2023-08-11 07:41 | Report Abuse

think Capitala pushing Icap NAV up. their Capitala avg cost i think 80sen only, now already 1.05, Icap untung 31% already

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-12 12:15 | Report Abuse

COL has resumed buying, with 215K shares over two days. What is their end game? All the way to the 33% parties in concert limit? Once other vulture funds smell blood in the water and also jump in, it will be game over, as the legal challenge was the last line of defense.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-12 12:20 | Report Abuse

I won't be surprised that it would have cost the company at least 3/4 million in legal fees for the futile court case, and this is before possible damages arising from the interim injunction that prevented COL from buying while the prices were still low.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-12 15:47 | Report Abuse

@i3lurker I did present myself at the registrar's office personally and was still turned away, that's why I threatened to report them and they quickly complied. I just want to hear them repeat in person the instruction they received from the company for the record.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-12 16:05 | Report Abuse

The Registrar knew the legal statues on the matter, as it is their bread and butter business, but they were instructed by the company otherwise, so caught in between until threatened with legal action.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-12 16:18 | Report Abuse

@i3lurker When I also requested to buy a copy of the company's M&A, they should have realised that I meant business. How many people would want to read the M&A if they just want to buy some shares in the company?

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-12 16:23 | Report Abuse

@i3lurker I am not a lawyer, but one thing I have learned from my expensive lawyer friends is not to go to court with unclean hands. So one should also not talk about good corporate governance likewise.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-12 16:30 | Report Abuse

The submissions by counsels by both sides in the COL injunction appeal make interesting readings on the background and causes of action by the company. That is why I am not a bit surprised with the verdict.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-12 17:17 | Report Abuse

@i3lurker I once reported a company paying a director's fees without putting it up for approval at the AGM to the SSM online, was called up by them to provide the necessary evidence, but somehow, NFA. Will p,m. you the details.

Posted by JohnD0ugh > 2023-08-13 14:21 | Report Abuse

Secondly, investors' behavioral bias has been avoided by Capital Dynamic's consistent value investing approach.

A good example is its investment in Padini. icapital.biz Bhd first bought Padini in late 2005 and early 2006 in a very patient and disciplined manner - see figure 11. At that time, Padini's paid up capital was only 62.4 mln and icapital.biz Bhd restrainedly bought 2.27 mln of Padini shares.

The first sell transaction came 7 years later, in the 2nd quarter of 2013 when concerns over the outcome of the 2013 elections took hold. Since then, icapital.biz Bhd has not sold a single Padini share and still holds a substantial quantity.

The cost price of its Padini shares is less than 30 sen, even before taking into account the dividends received.


i Capital Newsletter Volume 30 Issue 1 (www.icapital.biz)

Posted by Just88 > 2023-08-13 15:35 | Report Abuse

COL is certainly going to buy more until it has enough to overturn the board. What option is left for TTB to defend its cash cow?

Posted by Just88 > 2023-08-13 15:39 | Report Abuse

Which is a better strategy ?
1. share buyback
2. declare dividend
3. capital dynamic buying more icap shares from open market

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-14 15:35 | Report Abuse

With the re-emergence of COL as a buyer, there are a few things that is going to cause sleepless nights for some people. The next road bump is the 33% parties in concert rule for the buying, by which time, the gap between the two camps may have narrowed or even reversed, depending on who are the sellers. If they are stale bulls bailing out to take advantage of the higher price after being trapped for so long, the shareholders demographic will shift, and if these are also supporters of management, the switch will have double impact, minus for one and plus for the other. On the brighter side, the narrowing of the discount will reduce pressure from those clamoring for change. Watch out for the buying momentum. If with volume, may indicate new players getting into the game, like the green wave, haha.

Posted by Patient Investor > 2023-08-15 11:20 | Report Abuse

@JUST88

SBB, Dividend are not a good options for icap as it reduce the bullet for TTB to buy stocks.
if they use all the cash to buy back icap shares, its just like from now on icap will go into hibernation mode sitting on existing portfolio.

Posted by stockraider > 2023-08-15 12:10 | Report Abuse

Very positive development loh...high chance icap will be liquidated.....and investors can get min Rm 3.00 from icap loh!

Posted by fong7 > 2023-08-15 19:31 | Report Abuse

i thought icap's recent performance was because liquidation. So it's about a court case coming up? Then, still long long way to go. Court case, can dragged few years if not a year or so.

Posted by speakup > 2023-08-15 21:30 | Report Abuse

what court case? pls share

Posted by stockraider > 2023-08-16 10:31 | Report Abuse

City of London aim is to liquidate icap mah!

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-16 12:18 | Report Abuse

@Patient Investor A company doing SBB has two options with the accounting treatment of the shares. You are assuming the shares are cancelled, which allows the company to book the difference between the purchase price, say $2 before the run up where it has been sitting for quite a while, and the NAV, say around $3.40, the $1.40, as shareholders equities. This is the same kind of profit as sale of shares from the portfolio, a 70% profit. What's not to like? The other less common accounting treatment is to keep them as treasury shares without cancellation. Then it is just like other shares in the portfolio, marked to market or resold back into the market at the then higher market price, in this case, say $2.70, and book the difference 70 sen as profit, and the $2.70 cash is returned back to the kitty. Here, there is no permanent reduction to the cash and it is business as usual. Where is the hibernation?

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-16 12:46 | Report Abuse

Just to clarify, while the total shareholders' equities are reduced in a SBB, the NAV per remaining share goes up if the shares are bought below NAV. Take the simple case of a company with just two shares, market price $2 each, NAV $3.40 each, or total shareholders equities of $6.80. It buys back one share and cancels it. So the remaining one share is now backed by (6.80-2.00) $4.80 of the remaining NAV, a jump from 3.40. If the same share is treated as treasury share and resold at $2.70, the profit of $0.70 goes to shareholders equities, increasing it from 6.80 to 7.50, and the NAV per share is increased from the original 3.40 to 3.75 for the same two shares.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-16 12:53 | Report Abuse

What is the point of telling the whole world how cheap your shares are and not explaining to shareholders the options available with a SBB, brushing it off with the standard answer that it reduces the cash available for investment.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-16 13:48 | Report Abuse

The poster boy here for not doing SBB is Top Glove, but that is an apple and orange comparison. In iCap's case, it has always been NAV (the basis for management fee), not share price, not e.p.s. For Top Glove, sitting on all that cash pile from the Covid panic, earning a measly say 1.5%, and a projected earnings growth of more than say 25%, the SBB is all about e.p.s. which hopefully will translate into higher share price (the new normal business model). So reducing the share count will translate into higher e.p.s. for the remaining shares and a higher share price, with the controlling shareholders being the major beneficiaries, with their big fat stock options, and being capital gains, all tax free.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-17 12:59 | Report Abuse

Instead of spending all that money on Investors Day, I have this very simple reasoning. In TTB's books, there are 3 categories of assets: The existing iCap 'value' portfolio > than the cash holding > than all the other shares out there in the market, in order of preference. If one can use the cash and buy the same existing portfolio at a 40% off cheap sale, why not? If the shares are held as treasury shares, there is no permanent reduction in assets under management and management fees payable.

Posted by speakup > 2023-08-17 14:05 | Report Abuse

NAV shoot up to 3.64!
Current price 2.82 is a massive 29% discount to NAV

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-17 16:03 | Report Abuse

@stockraider Where did you get the idea that COL's intention is to liquidate iCap? Did they propose such a resolution at any company' AGM? Since they have more than 10% voting control and can call an EGM anytime, have they ever done so? Don't believe the fear mongering and the rumours that driven up the share price recently. COL has just resumed their steady buying which was injuncted by the company until now, so just making up for lost time, I think. All that the company can allege in the court case against COL are just these few points, exceeding the 20% individual shareholding limit, voting against the directors election at the 2021 AGM, and that it may exploit iCap at the expense of other shareowners, resulting in the decimation of iCap. If they have evidence, they would certainly have brought up this intention to liquidate too. All these points were dismissed by the court as without merits. So please get your facts right before spreading fake news.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-17 16:21 | Report Abuse

This is COL's investment philosophy-City of London Investment Management (CLIM) is an active value orientated equity manager specializing in Closed-End Funds. It should be emphasized that CLIM’s investment strategy differs from that of a traditional manager, in that we capitalize on the very real and identifiable inefficiencies Closed-End Funds offer. A Closed-End Fund has a fixed capital structure, which is comprised of shares that are listed and traded on a stock exchange via a stock broker. These shares trade at whatever value the stock market puts on them. In effect, a Closed-End Fund trades at a price that reflects demand. Demand, or the lack of it, is reflected in shares trading at a premium or a discount to Net Asset Value (NAV). Our excess return, or alpha, is generated by purchasing Closed-End Funds at a discount to NAV. Further benefits of Closed-End Funds include lower transaction costs and more flexible and faster asset allocation and access to some markets that are effectively closed to direct investment. So the only effective defense against COL is to narrow the price discount, to make it no longer attractive. COL's investment is never the cause of the discount, it is the effect, so why blame it all this while, and at what legal cost?

Posted by Just88 > 2023-08-18 22:16 | Report Abuse

KUALA LUMPUR 18 AUGUST 2023: After extensive research, icapital.biz Berhad (5108, ICAP) is to introduce, among other strategies, an innovative dividend policy to ensure that the gap between the fund’s share price and net asset value (NAV) will consistently be auto-remedied moving forward.

Posted by fairplay > 2023-08-18 23:04 | Report Abuse

Explain why iCapital judged No grounds to Appeal to Court of Appeal in iCapital suit against City of London. iCapital to pay cost RM30,000 to City of London "CLIM"

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-18 23:28 | Report Abuse

@Just 88 If such a 'magic bullet' dividend policy exists, why wait until now to introduce it? Another "dual listing" kind of thingy to pacify the shareholders, or a copycat of what I have posted here before, dividend plan with auto reinvestment? Pressure must be mounting for management to do something about the discount, instead of blaming it on COL, which resumed buying and the price went up instead of down this time, as previously alleged, haha.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2023-08-19 01:10 | Report Abuse

@fairplay check your message box for more details on the court case.