Posted by murali > Mar 9, 2016 09:29 PM | Report Abuse
If u ask me margin account can be even more risky to old folks...when they lost everything they can hardly make it back...
While youngster still can be productive for many years...meanwhile they may learn the hard lesson at early years which might be useful to them for their own growth

Logically,who is more experience and can think better, young or old?

If a young man uses margin and lost everything, which is likely, do you think he will have more confidence in investing in the future?

How many times can he fail,using margin,which probably he has to seek Along to settle them?

Do you know of some people still paying their debts for the loss they had using margin in 1998?

I do heard of some remisiers still paying the company by still having to work at 60 after the loss n 1998!

Again, I am not talking about you,but young people.

Posted by Icon8888 > Mar 9, 2016 09:30 PM | Report Abuse
same happen when Uncle Koon said margin facility charge you only 5%
I asked my IB why they charged he 8% ? my IB said 5% is for either (1) blue chips, or (2) lower than normal gearing ratio )instead of RM1 borrow RM1, maybe only borrow 0.7).
If you want a normal margin facility, you need to pay 8%


icon, you think an average Joe can make an average of compounded annual return of more than 8%, when for the last ten years, KLCI return CAR of 6%?

Posted by stockraider > Mar 9, 2016 09:00 PM | Report Abuse
RAIDER ALREADY SEE YOUR INVESTMENT CONCEPT....BUT U LACKED THE NECESSARY CONFIDENT & NAIVE AS REGARDS TO MARGIN LOH...!!
YOUR VIEW MISLEAD PEOPLE...THAT MARGIN IS BAD...WHEN MARGIN IS NEUTRAL.

Me: If you say margin is neutral, why do you want to encourage youngster to use it which can lead them to exaggerated losses in the stock market and sleepless nights?

The following super investors managed multi-billion funds for their investors and made billions for their investors and themselves.

Do you think they “lacked the necessary confidence and naïve”?

“I've seen more people fail because of liquor and leverage—leverage being borrowed money. You really don't need leverage in this world much. If you're smart, you're going to make a lot of money without borrowing.” Warren Buffett

“If you are going to be a very concentrated investor, you should not use leverage. You can’t leverage because you need to live through the downturns and that is incredibly important.” Joel Greenblatt

“Most investors are primarily oriented toward return, how much they can make and pay little attention to risk, how much they can lose.” Seth Klarmen

“I keep going back to what Charlie Munger said to me, which is none of this is easy, and anybody who thinks it is easy is stupid. It is just not easy. There are many layers to this, and you just have to think well.” Howard Marks

“Trying to avoid losses is more important than striving for great investment success. The latter can be achieved some of the time, but the occasional failure may be crippling. The former can be done more often and more dependably….and with consequences when it fails that are more tolerable.” Howard Marks

Posted by murali > Mar 9, 2016 08:25 PM | Report Abuse
I do not see margin that evil n I have been using it for years.....meanwhile many of my friends see stock investment as negative as u see margin ac due to their bad experience in their previous share readings...I think they will be happy to see stock trading to be banned...

It is really hard to convince others that encouraging youngsters to use margin finance is bad. I really wonder why. Note I am not talking about you use margin or I use margin, or Raiders use margin, as long as you do something right, which I don’t know what it is. But that doesn’t matter.

Now you say “many of my friends see stock investment as negative as u see margin ac due to their bad experience in their previous share readings.”

Aren’t your friends being average Joes in the stock market? So your friends have bad experience in stock market because they must have lost a lot of money in the market. Note they haven’t even used any margin yet.

So an average Joe will lose money in the market. And that is also proven in studies too. So why encourage them to use margins, which will amplify their loss? You may say who cares? But our children, our friends’ children may want to follow this too after reading your encouragement. By the way, will you encourage your children to use margins? Again, I am not talking about you, but your encouragement of youngsters, your children to use margins.

Yes, using a proven investment method will most likely give you good return in the long term; note the term “most likely”, and “long term”.

“Most likely” is because nothing is for certain, especially stock investment, and especially in the short-term. “long term” because stock market is volatile, and on average it can go up and down by 40% in a year.

But when a youngsters are encouraged to use margins, “to its limits”, a short term volatility will likely to kill them, not to mention about black swan event yet, which though called “Black swan event”, they do happen more often than you think.

Why you want to encourage your children and youngsters to engage in this type of thing, instead of save and invest with money of their own, money they do not need to use for years so that they won’t get margin calls? And so that they can focus on their career.

Now do you understand i cannot stand by the side when someone keeps on advocating youngsters and children to use margins, and hence my relentlessly criticizing about it?

murali,

We must talk about issues rather than condemning people. Besides My Koon has done a lot of good things, I mean a lot.

Posted by murali > Mar 9, 2016 06:08 PM | Report Abuse
Kc will forever say no to margin lah....partly thanks to koon koon....
Posted by murali > Mar 9, 2016 06:09 PM | Report Abuse
Koon koon really hurt his pride...

Hurt my pride, murali? You must be joking. Can’t you see I am a damn happy person from my writing. I guess you also don’t see the seriousness of encouraging youngsters to use margin finance in the stock market. Never mind, think more about it.

Say if someone asks you to manage his say $100m in stock market with a commission say 10%. Now he says he wants to use another $100 m margin finance. So now asset under management is $200m now instead of $100. If you can make just 10% for him, you get $2m commission instead of $10m. But if he loses 10%, it doesn’t hurt your pocket at all.

So if he wants to use margin finance to the limit, does it hurt you? For me, it definite doesn’t hurt me, and knowing his risk profile, I certainly will not say a word about it. This is human nature, self-interest, conflict of interest, agency problem in finance.

However, I will still do the same thing; criticizing the use of encouraging youngsters to use margin finance., even if I still manage his fund. This you have to really understand how bad it is to our society encouraging youngsters and your children to gamble. Using margin is a gamble, not investing, at least for the young and novice.

Murali, you got a wrong assessment of my character and my stat of happiness.

Posted by stockraider > Mar 9, 2016 06:07 PM | Report Abuse
IF U FINANCIAL TRAINER....TELL U HE HAVE NOT CONFIDENT TO BEAT YOUR COST OF 5% PA....OVER THE NEXT 10 YRS....!!
U BETTER ASK HIM CLOSE SHOP....AND JUMP INTO THE RIVER LOH...!!


Posted by stockraider > Mar 9, 2016 06:03 PM | Report Abuse
BUT THIS 5.88% PA....IS CHINCHAI INVESTMENT STRATEGY...IT STILL BEAT THE COST OF FUNDING OF 5% PA LOH....!!
IN ADDITION IT BEAT THE FIXED DEPOSITS RETURN TOO LOH...!!
IN RAIDER...CASE...THE RETURN BY RAIDER EVEN HIGHER...300% GAIN OVER SAY 6 YEARS LOH....!!
RAIDER WILL NOT MAKE SUCH A HIGH RETURN....IF RAIDER DO NOT USE MARGIN LOH.....!!
THUS...U SEE THE MERITS OF MARGIN...ESPECIALLY IN LOW INTEREST ENVIRONMENT MAH...!!


Raider, let me be very clear again. It is not about you or me, it is about teaching youngsters about using margin finance. Nobody cares how much you made using margin finance. Go ahead and use to the limit and make as much money as you want.

Let us talk about on average, including youngsters and old and experience. What is the percentage of them making 6% over the last 10 years? With 1% set up fee, 5% interest, and transaction cost, the margin one uses and lucky enough to make 6% is just making money for the investment banks, from the borrowed money. But the one using it bearing all the risks. Good deal?

Worse of all, it is not about the long term return, it is also about short term, as I have told you most of the margin users would have gone to Holland in early 2009. Many more would also have gone there during some sharp corrections in the last 10 years.

What is the merit of encouraging youngster to use margin finance.

Again, I am talking about you. I have no interest of how much you have made, rather how bad you are trying to encourage the youngsters to borrow and speculate, or invest if you wish to call it.

Yes, I am a finance and investment trainer. I have a few established records you can see just from this website. Do you think I need to jump into the river?

Posted by Godevil > Mar 9, 2016 05:18 PM | Report Abuse

kc l have been reading u articles n they make sense, why do u bother with some negative people here. U just can't please all the people all the time.


Thanks for your kind words. I thin it is good to engage with them so that I can explain and try share some wonderful investing principles.

It is a surprise many still need some proper guidance.

But as i have said, there would probably be wide spread margin calls in late 2008 and early 2009, and likely all capita have been wiped out already.

Posted by stockraider > Mar 9, 2016 02:24 PM | Report Abuse

Yes and No...!!
PLEASE NOTE;
Kc your example below on MARGIN has flaws loh...!!

OK ASSUME THE GUY PUT RM 100K OF HIS OWN MONIES INTO THE INDEX AND BORROW ANOTHER RM 100K MARGIN 10 yrs ago AT 5% PA...!!
ASSUMING THE RETURN LIKE U SAY....THE RETURN IS 5.88% PA COMPOUND...DOES THAT NOT MEAN HIS OVERALL EQUITY IS WORTH AT LEAST RM 177,000 COMPARE TO HIS ORIGINAL CAPITAL OF RM 100K LEH ?

SEE THIS IS A GOOD EXAMPLE....EVEN LOW RETURN....IF U BORROW AT LOW INTEREST RATE...U WILL NEVER BE WORSE OFF....SO LONG AS YOUR MODEST RETURN BEAT THE INTEREST RATE LOH....!!


You probably have not included many other costs, such as transaction costs, facilities rollover costs etc. Even without those costs, the best scenario of your return of equity is less than 5% compounded.

Does that justify your opportunity cost?

Most of all, does it justify the risk of margin calls?

Remember, risk is also important, not only return.

Posted by stockraider > Mar 9, 2016 02:06 PM | Report Abuse

THIS KC, STILL HAVING NOT GOT OVER FROM MARGIN FUNDING DEBATE WITH RAIDER LOH...!!
WHAT RAIDER MEANS IS FOR ORDINARY CARE FREE OR LAYBACK INVESTOR....TO BUY INTO THE INDEX FOR LONG TERM....LIKE WHAT W.BUFFET HAD RECOMMENDED TO PROVE A GOOD POINT.....!! U ASSETS WILL COMPOUND LOH...!!

BTW....RAIDER HAD GONE INTO MARGIN IN 2009....BUT, RAIDER STILL HAD MAKE GOOD MONIES DESPITE KENA 2 MARGIN CALL LOH...!!
IN FACT RAIDER NETWORTH TRIPLE 3X FROM 2009 TO 2016 LOH...!!


I can safely said many investors here have more than triple their net worth from 2009 to 2016 because of all the low hanging fruits in 2009, without using a sen of margin finance.

I think this is an excellent example to show margin is not that great as propagated by some people.

It is not about you or me. It is about teaching the right life value to our next generations.

Posted by stockraider > Mar 9, 2016 01:08 PM | Report Abuse
If u just hold the index from 2007 to now 2016 10 yrs...u make a lot of monies loh...!!


The above statement is correct, although over the last 10 years, the market returns a 5.88% compounded annually. the total return will be 77%. That shows the power of compounding.

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/92412.jsp

However, if you take margin finance with 1% set up fee, 5% interest, plus brokerage and misl of total of 1%, you will end up only making money for the investment bank which lend you the money.

That is the best scenario. The likely scenario would be investment banks would have sold all your shares because of margin calls in 2008, early 2009, and you will end up with heavy losses, besides sleepless nights.

Posted by ckkhen > Mar 9, 2016 11:02 AM | Report Abuse
I have a few portfolios, one of which is called "kcchong" since last year that has given me handsome gains such as Magni, Scientex, Perstima, Padini. Apollo, Kuchai and Hexza. My "kcchong" portfolio is the best performing one because it consists of fundamental value stocks with margin of safety.

ckkhen, thanks for your kind comment. I hope you don't mind me using this comment when the next time I get Pong Pong Pong. and also for marketing, ok?

shinado,

It is better to be safe than sorry.

Your criteria are stringent no doubt. But if you can find a few to invest in, you can sleep soundly.

I believe you can find many during market down turn, especially when there are a lot of margin calls. Margin calls appear to be very common nowadays. It is certainly good for those looking for bargain like you do.

icon,

I was shocked reading the title of your new article until I read this

"However, I am just joking when I said sell car sell house. Please buy within your means."

Such a relieve. Yeah, we need to be a little responsible of telling our youngsters certain thing, many of reading here.

Good analysis, btw.

Bought already when reading "Serious Investing", although I don't really like to invest in Airline. But it was really attractively priced then.

Posted by chonghai > Mar 8, 2016 11:56 PM | Report Abuse
kcchongnz, thanks for your article. It is emotionally soothing to read your article when small caps are having a tough time.


Thanks chonghai for your kind words.

This is a good investor which in my opinion everyone should follow.

I wrote many articles about V.S. which I share my concerns on its cash flows. chonghai had invested in V.S and I think could be quite a lot. He evaluated what I have written, and has his own independent thinking and made his own decision to hold, or may be buy more, and as a result, I believe he made a lot of money.

While many others, including a couple of very respected forumers came out and personally attacked me, some even called names, using terms like bullshitting, misleading, etc. (yes, I am human, hard to forget certain things too)chonghai never attack me. Instead, he expressed thank to what I wrote. Hard to find this type of people around.

Why should anyone attack me personally as I was helping you to give another opinion, which you can evaluate and make your own judgment?

I think it boils down to some personal self interest and agenda.

Posted by donfollowblindly > Mar 8, 2016 11:19 PM | Report Abuse

We need more forumers like lux88.


Me: oh I see
birds of same feather flock together


Posted by lux88 > Mar 6, 2016 09:36 PM | Report Abuse http://cdn1.i3investor.com/cm/icon/trans16.gif

KC, what your stock performance for 2016?
U not even dare to compete for the i3 stock pick competition.
Even though OTB portfolio is doing weak now, at least he dare to take part and dare to admit mistake.
OTB i believe will be stronger and wiser now.

Posted by lux88 > Mar 6, 2016 09:51 PM | Report Abuse http://cdn1.i3investor.com/cm/icon/trans16.gif

Kchong,u no ball to compete, OTB better than u.
No need to talk big here.
How well? Ur Coastal also drop 50%.

Posted by donfollowblindly > Mar 8, 2016 11:17 PM | Report Abuse

You never say bad things about your stocks which is not true.



So you want me to follow blindly this fellow below who only say bad things about anybody?

http://klse.i3investor.com/servlets/cube/post/donfollowblindly.jsp

Posted by Icon8888 > Mar 8, 2016 11:00 PM | Report Abuse

YES, trapped with a lot of profit

I bought 3 lorries at 23 sen few weeks ago

checked out BIMB and BIMB-WA threads to see whether I BS you


Icon, how come you can make tons of money whereas that follow blindly one always lost his underwear whatever he follows.

Actually he doesn't understand what the article is trying to teach him. I doubt he reads also, except Pong Pong Pong.

Posted by donfollowblindly > Mar 8, 2016 10:43 PM | Report Abuse
Not only Coastal drop 50%. BIMB-W, MRCB-W also drop a lot.


You know this guy is so stupid. People teach him what is financial risk management using warrants as example, he followed blindly without understand the articles, and simply bought loads of MRCB and BIMB warrants and lost until pok kai.

He was so lucky that he had never bought tens of stocks I wrote about which went up sky high, but just bought the only stocks (one of the very few stocks) which I wrote about until also pok kai.

That is why you must change you name and don't follow blindly.

Posted by koonthebest > Mar 7, 2016 09:17 PM | Report Abuse
PONG PONG PONG! 10 million you got ah! do not dream empty tong! 1 million you got ah! if yes, please show me! donate 3 students to complete degree! 160k only! can ah! ok ah! empty tong kcchongnz! PONG PONG PONG!

Did I say I got RM10m? And how do you know I don't have?

did I say I have donated 3 students to study? How do you know I don't donate?

Answer my questions.

The portfolio of 25 stocks returns 15.2% since it was put up by Tan KW, not me, just to share with i3investor forumers the principles of value investing.

Till to date on 7th March 2016, the portfolio returns an average of 15.2%, compared to the drop of the broad market of 3% for the same 5 quarters period, or probably a compounded annual growth rate of 12.5%. This beats the return of the broad market by a very wide margin for the last ten years of about 6%.

If I can maintain this return for long term investing, say 20 years, RM10m investment will become RM105.5m, compared to RM32.1m if you invest in the 30 component stocks of Bursa.

I will be damn rich then. Why did you say I will still be poor?

So what is this “PONG PONG PONG”?

So why do you want to compare this portfolio with the one-year return of the competitors for 2015 stock pick challenge?

Was that put up by me to be in the 2015 stock pick challenge?

And what is the results of your portfolio in the 2015 stock pick challenge? Please show!

Posted by koonthebest > Mar 7, 2016 07:26 PM | Report Abuse
critics should ask why they are still poor! PONG PONG PONG! not even one stock delivered 100% or more returns! PONG PONG PONG!

The portfolio of 25 stocks returns 15.2% since it was put up by Tan KW, not me, just to share with i3investor forumers the principles of value investing.

Till to date on 7th March 2016, the portfolio returns an average of 15.2%, compared to the drop of the broad market of 3% for the same 5 quarters period, or probably a compounded annual growth rate of 12.5%. This beats the return of the broad market by a very wide margin for the last ten years of about 6%.

If I can maintain this return for long term investing, say 20 years, RM10m investment will become RM105.5m, compared to RM32.1m if you invest in the 30 component stocks of Bursa.

I will be damn rich then. Why did you say I will still be poor?

So what is this “PONG PONG PONG”?

So why do you want to compare this portfolio with the one-year return of the competitors for 2015 stock pick challenge?

Was that put up by me to be in the 2015 stock pick challenge?

And what is the results of your portfolio in the 2015 stock pick challenge? Please show!

Posted by Icon8888 > Mar 7, 2016 07:35 PM | Report Abuse
Errrr.... Which article .... ? "Does FA have any predictive power " ?


Efficient market hypothesis states that stock price reflects all available information, and hence nobody can earn extra-ordinary return from the market. If there is, it is purely due to chance.

Price then is close to its value. But how can the value of a company can change by 5% a day, 30% in a month?

This articles has shown that using the various value investing strategies have consistently beating the market.

If the market is efficient, then those strategies can't beat the market. And how can they beat the market due to chance since they consistently have done that?

If market is efficient, how can the return of my portfolios shown here can beat the market by such a wide margin, every year for the last year.

And how can you yourself make extra-ordinary return from the market the last few years.

Warren Buffett used to say; if the market is efficient, I would be carrying a tin can in my hands on the streets.

Posted by Icon8888 > Mar 7, 2016 05:36 PM | Report Abuse
Without a PHD, my view is that Bursa is very efficient. This conclusion based on my day to day experience. Whenever there is money making opportunities, capital (many are retail,) will flow in to exploit. When something bad, they will dump. The era whereby fund managers tarik harga and only buy liquid stocks is gone. The market has been democratized, and as a result, becomes very efficient.
This is my view.
KC and everybody, if you think differently, please share your view. I am very keen to know how you feel. Thank you


Icon, read this article of mine where you make your comments again and again.

Does it appear to you that the market is efficient?

Posted by PureBULL . > Mar 7, 2016 11:07 AM | Report Abuse

Hi kcchongnz, Icon8888 n all,
Together we can create synergy.
JUST DO IT.


PureBull,

I am in. Your call.

Posted by PureBULL . > Mar 7, 2016 10:00 AM | Report Abuse
Dear kcchongnz,
I am very glad that u r doing a service to society by imparting your knowledge n experiences for a small fee.
To my knowledge, u r the TA taiko in i3.
I strongly believe many people, more so the newbies must seek knowhow on FA 1st, because FA is your 1st step to the long journey of stock investment. n kcchongnz is available for your advantage anytime now.

I was FA 1st of course. A true FA indeed. Out of BCT University, I was a Corporate Planning Officer with the most aggressive chinaman banking conglo. as my 1st job n last job. I did many projects on M&A, detail financial n biz feasibility studies, operational audits to advise mgmt co. to increase installed plant capacity n to enhance mkt development n penetration. I do know the very importance of FA to biz future prospect.

So kcchongnz, I do give u my full support.
We r trained as engineers not expert in charming people. Good to always say nice things about other people's tools or just nothing to be safe. Making others happy is key # 1.
1 day I might be in Auckland as your visitor, can or not ?


PureBull,

Thanks for your kind words. I do have some good golf kakis in Auckland, but not that many friends I used to have in Malaysia. So I always welcomed anyone visiting me in Auckland. Friends are forever.
I know next to nothing about TA, so your statement “To my knowledge, u r the TA taiko in i3.” Is incorrect.

Okay, now I know your education background and experience. So you must be an experienced financial professional and a knowledgeable investor. I respect you for that.

But bear in mind that your experience may be unique of your own, and not necessary others must also follow suit; like following momentum investing because your experience is that it is better than value investing.

I seldom comment of others method of investing, because I don’t know much about them. In here, I just cited what other super investors have said, which to a certain extend, I agree with them. But in my opinion, it is okay to give one’s critical opinion, be it positive or negative, as long as one doesn’t go into personal attack, just like what you started your comment here.

Saying good things on something you do not believe in, sounds like hypocrisy to me.

Posted by PureBULL . > Mar 7, 2016 08:57 AM | Report Abuse

The very best in stocks will not waste their precious time in i3, bcos he or she can make so easy money in stocks.

let me think n walk about it for a moment, pls kcchongnz. I know having your last support is like asking you for your life. but i don't need it oso. be Cool...


There are many people who write here do not necessary want to make "easy money" in stocks.

"Who say investing is easy. Anyone who says making money is so easy in the stock market is stupid" Charles Munger (with a little modification)

Many here are happy, happy is the ultimate aim, to share their knowledge and experience, their life, political and investing experience etc.

I am doing reasonable well in investing without using momentum. But seriously, i will consider momentum later in my investing. it is an added tool.

However, I will never consider it before my value investing analysis of the stock, and i don't need those funny things like shooting stars, dojie, saucers and pans, or candle sticks. Some simple momentum indicators will do. And that is later, for sure.

Value investors, after analysing if a stock is a good stock, only buy them if they are selling at reasonable price, or better still, cheap. Some may look at the momentum of the stocks, but that is after deciding the two earlier two factors. But most don’t have to and yet their records are fantastic as clearly shown in this article. If those stocks eventually become momentum stocks, and prices shoot up, that is actually the result of finally more investors discover that they are good and cheap, and hence start chasing after them. It is then a bonus and reward time for value investors. For those who chase the “momentum” later when the price has exceeded the value, most suffer losses.

So value investors who hold value stocks and you tell them about they are doing momentum investing, then you are the worst joker to make them lol.

Value investing has no boundaries of what industries the stocks are in. They are not necessary must have 20 years’ record and must hold for another twenty years. It is good to have some years of record earnings and cash flows, and value investors will sell them when their prices reach their intrinsic value, and intrinsic value is not a historical value, but an educated estimate of its present value from its future cash flows.

Physics is an exact science. Investing is more of an art. Can use the principle of sciences to do artistic investing?

If you disregard investing in a stock is investing in a business, or value investing; i.e. buying good companies at good prices, and only shout about your momentum investing, the super value investors will lol at you such as one of these:

“In 30 years in this business, I do not know anybody who has done it successfully and consistently, nor anybody who knows anybody who has done it successfully and consistently. Indeed, my impression is that trying to do the market timing is likely, not only not to add value to your investment programme, but to be counterproductive.”
John Bogle on market timing

What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere’s Fan

“Candle sticks, flags, pennants, and tea cups-staples of the chartist’s stock in trade-are for the birds.”
Oh, yeah, I didn’t say the above. They are from the great super value investors of the world with proven records.


Posted by PureBULL . > Mar 7, 2016 07:01 AM | Report Abuse
There r 2 broad classes of investing even learned people r confused of :
i. Value investing
ii. Momentum investing

If u r buying or holding momentum stocks n u tell people about value investing then u r the best joker to make everybody lol.

WB is the best master in value investing.
What is he been buying ?
Stocks with solid track record of growth in a span of 20 yrs. n he shall buy in the believe that these cos. will again mirror the same n better increasing profit performance in the next every 20 yrs n perpetually.

This is called value investing. n u can safely hold long term or for life because the stock price of these solid rock cos. will always rise higher from all mkt crashes to multiple record highs to the new blue skies.
then u shout with WB; price is what u pay, value is what u get.
U don't worry at all about Black Swan economic event causing misery to the stock prices.

WB's pillar of success:
i. World Population will forever increases, so is his biz n cos t/o.
ii. Higher global Inflation every yr with high pricing power.

Stock prices r the result of behavioral finance.
That's clearly shown in chart patterns or TA.
Behavioral finance effects both the above investing classes.
So use Knowledge of good TA for both. it works wonderfully.

What is momentum stocks ?
In physics, Momentum = mass X velocity
At Game Over, void of volume or speed of price increases or even at no price change, these stocks could plunge over nite. After a crash, many might not recover at all. It's a game with expiry date. Never spend too much time to analyze their engineered P&L n Cash-flow statements.
Use a simpler n better way to monitor them, like price action theory or weekly candle sticks to determine its trend.

icon and Desa,

You guys seem to be in some productive discussions now. Good on you. You are all always welcomed in my thread, if you wish.

Posted by lux88 > Mar 6, 2016 09:51 PM | Report Abuse
Kchong,u no ball to compete, OTB better than u.
No need to talk big here.
How well? Ur Coastal also drop 50%.

Really kah, don’t put in some stocks means no balls? What logic? You haven't answered my previous questions yet.

Listen to me. Learn some fundamental investing. Don’t treat investing in a stock as if it is a competition, or a game. Good to play some games, but don’t treat it so seriously. Don’t look at stock prices every day and shout here shout there. Stock prices changes every day and you have no control over it.

You put in some stocks in the competition, when prices go up in two months, or go down. That doesn’t mean anything. Even it is up in a year, or down in a year, it also doesn’t mean anything. Investing is a long term endeavor.

If you really want to learn about stock picks, read and understand these articles. Seriously.

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/90970.jsp
http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/90900.jsp
http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/90072.jsp
http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/87546.jsp
http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/86545.jsp
http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/86127.jsp
http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/85828.jsp
http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/85800.jsp
http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/85405.jsp
http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/85379.jsp
etc.

But of course you have your own choice to shout here and shout there too.

Posted by lux88 > Mar 6, 2016 09:36 PM | Report Abuse

KC, what your stock performance for 2016?
U not even dare to compete for the i3 stock pick competition.
Even though OTB portfolio is doing weak now, at least he dare to take part and dare to admit mistake.
OTB i believe will be stronger and wiser now.


I am doing very well with my 2016 portfolio. Thank you.

Oh yeah, do you mean that everyone must compete in the 2016 stock pick competition? Why? What is the benefit? What have you learn from it? Why do you think it is so great to compete? For what purpose?

Do you compete? If yes, do you think your contribution in i3investor is more than me?

Posted by Icon8888 > Mar 6, 2016 09:10 PM | Report Abuse

These few weeks uncle Koon not doing well, Desa immediately stopped PLP him, so realistic


一个没有原则人

Posted by Koon Bee > Mar 6, 2016 07:35 PM | Report Abuse

Kcchong is the best!! You are my new sifu now


Wah, serious man. Compliment from Koon Bee?

Not sure it is genuine or not.

When separated, they hate me. But when come together, they praise me?

Betul tidak?

stockraider

Raider comment;
Why u say a successful margin user pure luck ? This statement is sweeping and unfair loh...!!
If raider say the guy pass Engineer....pure luck ? It is unfair leh..No ?
Raider think...every area if u can master well...u eliminate the element of pure luck loh...!!


Me: Most people think they are very good making good profit in the stock market, without realizing the role of luck plays a more important role, especially in the short term. Similarly, for margin users when they strike once, yes, majority due to luck, especially in the short term. So they do that again and again, with the advice of “using margin to the limits”. When the market turns, which it often does, they lose everything.

Over-confidence has no place in investing.


Raider comment: Raider side mah....!! There are many people that are successful that raider don know loh....!!
But the 10 within raider circle of friend....that is successful...lend confidence....that we should not if they rectify their investment skill....they will magnify their gain instead of the losses....if they use margin mah...!!

KC being a trainer...should be confident...that a successful investment skill can imparted...mah...!!


Me: So how about those hundreds or thousands who failed into oblivion, exaggerated by the use of margin finance?

Yes, I do teach people about the fundamental of value investing and I strongly believe those who follow these principles will be successful in investing, in the long run. They may encounter short term share price volatility, which very often do, but in the long run, the probability of success is high.

But I don’t tell them they will sure make a lot of money, even in the short run. That will be from the mouth of snake oil salesman.

As market is unknowable and unpredictable, anyone who says he is cock sure of making 100% or even 10% in the short term, is a snake oil salesman.

Unfortunately, when using margin, you got to be right in the short run too, otherwise if you are terrible wrong, not only because of your stock selection skill, but due to black swan events not under your control, you get killed straightaway.


Raider just use George Soros as an ultimate benchmark...but actually the average Joe still can use margin profitably...but using a reasonable good investment system or skill loh..!!


Me: Really kah, even an average Joe can use margin profitably? Where got suckers in the stock market for you to profit from anymore?


Raider; if u ask for statistic...raider cannot give, bcos it is academic or useless info loh...!! Common sense tell raider that 5% pa is actually a bear minimum....given fixed deposits u may get upto 4% pa return mah...!!
If u cannot hit above 5% pa...u r lousy...u have failed...u better rethink whats wrong with your investment tech...!!


Me: Research statistics are not just academic or useless information as alleged by you. Those who claimed so are either they don’t read, or not able to understand research. They are empirical evidence, not merely empty sweeping statements.

I have just shown you average investor, even without margin, fails miserably in the stock market. Who is this “average Joe” you mention who is better? But can “average” be “better”?


Raider comment; In a way stock market is unpredictable in the short run loh.....!! But in long run is fairly predictable mah....!!
W.Buffet say short run...stock price is a voting machine and long run is a weighing machine mah...!!
Thus if use margin properly ....it can be highly successful...when interest rate is very low especially loh....!!
Thats why raider say...if u master the margin risk....it can be a good tool to make u rich...!!
Thus please be open minded....let young people explore loh....!!

Me: That is exactly the problem. Margin users have to be right in the short term. They can’t be terribly wrong in the short term because they will get thrashed and never able to get up again. And in investing, things can go terribly wrong in the short term. It has been shown again and again in history.

Hey,

The more you mumble, the more I doubt your claim that you are a 60-year old retired accountant. OMG!



Posted by stockmanmy > Mar 5, 2016 08:45 PM | Report Abuse

compounding and exponential growth is the eighth wonder ....quotes Einstein.

But Einstein is not talking about stock-market. Einstein is talking about natural phenomenons......but the marketing agents have hijacked Einstein to serve their own needs to market their services.

Those who wish to enjoy compound growth should stick to fixed income and EPF.

Those who wish to join the world of tycoons are welcomed to the world of the tycoons full of risks and opportunities and gearing and margin accounts...even Tony Fernandes has margin accounts.

Posted by stockraider > Mar 5, 2016 07:29 PM | Report Abuse
IT IS GOOD FOR YOUNGSTER TO START EARLY...!! IT IS EXPECTED NOT ALL IS EXPECTED TO MAKE THE GRADE...!! SOME WILL FAIL...AND MOVE ON...!!
THERE ARE SOME WILL BE SOME WHO MASTER THE SKILL AND BECOME HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL LOH....!! RAIDER SEE MANY FRIENDS AND SIFU DID VERY WELL LOH...!!

Me: What will be the percentage of success and failure of youngsters or just normal retail investors? Please shows some research statistics.

How bad will it be if they fail with margin finance in speculating, or investing if you prefer to call it?

THERE ARE FAILURE BUT THERE ARE SUCCESS TOO....!!
SO WE SHOULD DISCOUNT ALL THE FINANCIAL TOOLS...!!
THE ISSUE IS NOT MARGIN....BUT THE NECESSARY SKILL OF THE USER THAT NEED TO BE DEVELOPED LOH...!!

Me: Yes, the issue is margin because if one fails with his own money, he can stand up again easily. If fail badly using margin, one not only lose everything, he can even lose more.

AS I SAY...NOT EVERY YOUNGSTER CAN BE A DOCTOR, LAWYER, ENGINEER, PILOT BUT WE SHOULD NOT PREVENT THEM FROM TRYING LOH...!! BCOS ONE OF THEM....MAY HAVE MASTER THE SKILL OF MARGIN AND HE MAY BECOME THE NEW SUPER INVESTOR OF MSIA GEORGE SOROS LOH..!!

Me: No, I will never discourage someone aspiring to be an engineer if he wants to try to. But I will definitely not encourage him to be an engineer if at high school, he can’t even do multiplication and division, because the chance is he will never succeed and will waste his time; and even if he eventually succeed to become one, like someone succeed becoming rich using margin finance, most likely purely due to luck, it won’t be good for the society too because building designed by him will collapse.

OVER IN RAIDER SIDE HERE....RAIDER HAD AT LEAST MORE THAN 10 CLOSE FRIENDS, THAT RAIDER KNOW PERSONALLY...THAT ARE SUCCESSFUL USING MARGIN FOR MORE THAN 20 YRS LOH....!!
THERE WOULD NOT BE AS SUCCESSFUL....IF THEY HAVE NOT MASTER THE ART OF MARGIN INVESTMENT AND THE MARGIN OF SAFETY LOH...!!

Me: Ten succeeded, out of how many?
Yes, I also always hear of success stories in the stock market and hardly hear of failure personally from those people concerned. It is human nature. It is glorifying to tell people that one makes a lot of money from the stock market, but it is shameful to tell others of losing money, isn’t it?
But quoting numbers like that is highly spurious, you should do much better than that basing on numbers from research which are statistically significant.

YES THIS ULTIMATE....THE BEST OF THE BEST....A GOOD EXAMPLE IS GEORGE SOROS LOH....!!

Me: How many George Soros are there in this world? And how many Michael Sochai have actually lost their pants following the advice of using margin buying expensive stocks which had run up many folds in the stock market?

BUT U NEED NOT BE AS GOOD AS OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST OR GEORGE SOROS...WHAT U NEED TO DO....IS JUST BE REASONABLE OK...TO ACHIEVE POSITIVE RESULTS.

Me: Please shows statistics from research of how many percent of retail investors who have made above 5% return in the stock market.

BENEFITS OF MARGIN TOOLS IS NOT A JOKE LOH...!!
IT IS A SERIOUS SUCCESSFUL INSTRUMENT FOR THOSE WHO REALLY LEARN AND MASTER THE USE LOH...!!

Me: Most people like you only think of positive outcome. Unfortunately, the stock market is highly unknowable and unpredictable. Are you also fully aware of the perils of margin finance and its disastrous outcome if things don't go your way?

stockraider Actually using margin is less harm than buying derivative like warrant loh....!!
A lot people...lose margin...bcos they use the margin to buy into warrant loh....!!
That mean...a high risk with a very high risk instrument...so u can imagine how much u will impacted u if the price reverse downwards loh....!!
Learn to use margin well...!!
learn to ride a motorbike well...!!
It will have its benefit once u master it loh...the fear is not margin...itself...it is unskillful and reckless players loh...!!
Just like u ...ride the bike....reckless....it is high risk of accident loh..!!
IT PLAIN COMMON SENSE MAH...!!
PEOPLE SEE USING MARGIN...LIKE COMMITTING MAJOR INVESTMENT SIN...IN FACT IT IS NOT LOH....!!
MARGIN, DERIVATIVE ARE SO OF THE TOOLS THAT CAN HELP U LOH...!!


So you now finally admit using margin finance is also a high risk thing, just like playing derivatives. Good on you.

But why do you advocate a high risk investing to youngsters?

I strongly criticize it, not because you use margin is like you are committing major investment sin. Be my guest. Use margin “to the limits” as you like. It is none of my business.

But when you advocate, tell the youngsters to do this you already acknowledge as risky thing, you are doing a disservice to the society, because despite of what you have said, you haven’t given the complete picture, a true picture, of the pros and cons of margin finance yet, as what I have done.

The skill of using margin finance to make a lot of money from the stock market, if there is any proven skill, is like the skill of riding a bike well?

One must learn the skill of using margin finance, just like learning to become an Olympic gold medallist, because everyone can be taught and trained to be a gold medallist?

You must be kidding.

Posted by stockraider > Mar 4, 2016 04:06 PM | Report Abuse
KC is not comparing apple to apple loh....!!
I guy having Rm 100k cash & want to invest everything in one derivative and a guy having Rm 100k and want to invest everything into the mother share mah....!!

Normally warrant will have the usual 5 to 1 leverage power and margin only have 1.67 to leverage power loh....!!

Given a guy...having Rm 100k...he will dump everything to warrant...he is expose upto Rm 100k cash loh...!!


Please don't use the term investing in your above statement. It is pure gambling, 100% pure gambling.

We are talking about risk all the time. I don't know about you, but I won't be so stupid to dump all RM100000 into warrant.

The goal is the same, to have an expected return of RM100,000; one using RM50000 own money plus RM50000 borrowings from bank, and the other using just RM11000 of his own money.

How can you say the latter is riskier than the former?

You got to have the mind set of doing financial risk management instead of gambling.

If you gamble,of course you will lose more,even with derivatives, no doubt.

Try learn something about using derivatives as financial risk management if you still don't have any knowledge. Trust me, it is good for you.

Posted by stockraider > Mar 4, 2016 02:21 PM | Report Abuse

Just bcos KC have bought warrant b4 and did not use margin b4...does not mean....Margin is of higher risk than the derivative loh...!!


Me: Let us say you intend to make RM100000, either from the underlying share, U, selling at RM1.00, or from its call warrant selling at 10 sen which has a conversion price of RM1.00 and expires in say 2 years’ time.

You expect the underlying share will double to RM2.00 in two years’ time, note expect, not necessary it will be.

So you will buy 100000 shares at RM1.00, or an initial outlay of RM100000. You are very good. You want to use margin finance to double your return. So you will use RM50000 of your own money, and RM50000 from margin financing.

When the outcome is positive and you are right as expected, you make the RM100000, or 200% using margin finance. So far so good.

But if you are wrong, and the share price drops 50% instead, you lose your RM50000, plus the margin finance of RM50000 you borrow. That is also 200% loss, not including your set up fees and interest for the money you borrow yet.

For speculating in warrants, W, and having the same expectation that the underlying share will go up to RM2.00 two years later, I buy 111000 shares of W at 10 sen, or an initial outlay of RM11100, only one fifth of your initial outlay in U.

When the share price of U goes up to RM2.00, the value of W is RM1.00, and my profit is 90 sen in W. My total profit will be the same of RM100000 (111000*0.9), the same as U.

But if U becomes 50 sen two years later, my W will expire worthless, and my total loss is RM11100, or 100% of my initial outlay.

Risk of losing RM100000, or 200% using 50% margin finance to aim for a gain of RM100000, compared to risk of losing RM11100, or 100% in speculating in a leveraged instrument to aim for the same gain, so your margin finance safer than speculating in a leveraged instrument?

Please elaborate.

Posted by stockraider > Mar 4, 2016 11:58 AM | Report Abuse
THIS KIND OF ARGUEMENT....DO NOT HOLD WATER LOH...!!
JUST BCOS U PUT RM 100K...U R LIMITING YOUR LOSSES LOH...!!
WHAT RAIDER SEE...IF U PUT RM 100K INTO DERIVATIVE U ARE AT RISK OF LOSING THE ENTIRE RM 100K LOH COMPARE PUT INTO MOTHER SHARE MAH...!!

THE SAME ARGUEMENT CAN BE SAY...IF I GET A MARGIN OF RM 100K LIMIT...MY MAX LIMIT LOSS OF RM 100K ONLY ??

THE CONTEXT OF LOSING MONIES USING MARGIN AND USING DERIVATIVE SHOULD BE READ TOGETHER LOH...!!
BOTH MAGNIFY EARNINGS AND LOSSES....!!

Let us not just talk, but show something solid of what we mean by margin finance which I have written numerous time, and one of the articles is here:

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/44344.jsp
http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/61822.jsp
http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/79429.jsp

And how to do financial risk management in speculating in a leveraged instrument.

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/58905.jsp

Yes, both magnify profit and losses. But which one will lose more, and which can subject to margin calls which the price can fall like waterfall due to the indiscriminate selling of investment bankers to limit their own loss, and can even lose more, much more, than their initial outlays?

Let us see how your argument “hold water”.

Posted by stockraider > Mar 4, 2016 11:24 AM | Report Abuse
ICON BY BUYING INTO THE WARRANT, INSTEAD MOTHER....INDIRECTLY U R A MARGIN INVESTOR TOO LOH...!!

MOST PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW, THEY ARE IN FACT USING MARGIN WHEN THEY ARE BUYING INTO DERIVATIVE LOH...!!

IF USING DERIVATIVE, THE CAUTION SHOULD BE APPLIED LIKE WARRANT AS PER USING BANK MARGIN MAH....!!
IN FACT DERIVATIVE, HAVE A HIGHER RISK COMPARE WITH BANK MARGIN , BCOS
OF THE HIGHER LEVERAGE AND USUALLY HIGH PREMIUM PAID OR COST COMPARE WITH BANK INTEREST RATES LOH...!!

Speculator bets on derivatives in the hope of exaggerated return. They bet say RM1m on an option, hoping to make RM10m with an option with a gearing of 10 times. When the option expires out-of-the-money, he loses everything, i.e. RM1m. Yet his maximum loss is only what he has bet on, i.e. RM1m.

A financial risk management investor places RM10000 on an option, hoping to make RM100,000. If his bet is right, he makes extra-ordinary gain using one tenth of the money to hope to make the same gain. If he is wrong, the maximum he loses is RM10000.

In both cases above, the initial outlay is the maximum they will lose.

In speculating on derivative, you are speculating on a leveraged instrument. You are not using margin finance by borrowing more money than what you have to speculate.

How can you compare a margin finance user and speculating in a leveraged instrument?

That is the difference of a speculator and an investor’s mind set.

Posted by stockraider > Mar 4, 2016 10:00 AM | Report Abuse
Raider beg to be different here loh....!!
U should margin during the extreme bear and reduce your exposure as the mkt slowly turn more and more bullish and complete out when it is very bull loh....!!
This is in line with the teaching of taking advantage of Ben Graham Mr Market loh...!!
U r most optimistic when market is most bearish and most pessimistic when market is most bullish loh....!!
Of course the above is only ur psychology make up....u still need to be collaborated with your margin of safety calculation, in order to be successful loh....!!
Should u margin today ? Raider says can start mildly & tip toe loh...!!


Raider, be my guest. Use your margin to your limits as you wish. My blessing to you. But you are doing a disservice to the society encouraging the youngsters and newbies to use margin finance.

Show me where and how the use of margin finance “is in line with the teaching of taking advantage of Ben Graham Mr Market loh”.

Instead of your assertion that my discouragement of using margin as “flaw”, I think your propagation of the use of margin finance is becoming more and more dangerous, and misleading, and flawed too.

In the Asian Financial Crisis in 1997 the KLCI dropped by close to 60% in about just half a year. The markets did recover substantially by about 35% between one to three months. That was the most dangerous part, as those who thought Jaw 1 had ended without knowing the appearance of Jaw 2. The markets plummeted by another 60% in another half a year later when KLCI and SBI closed at 303 points and 77 points respectively on 28 August 1998.

The KLCI suffered its biggest daily drop of 21.5% on Sept 8, 1998 after Anwar Ibrahim was sacked as the Deputy Prime Minister. From peak to trough within one and a half year, the KLCI and SBI had lost by 76% and 88% respectively.

Are you aware that how many speculators, especially those using margin finance, got killed during that time; both during its peak when the market was extremely bullish, and its bear market when many investors thought that Jaw 1 had gone?

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/73675.jsp

1997-8 was just one of the numerous examples in Malaysia. Before that we have the cash of 1973, 1983, 1984, 1987,

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/73543.jsp

After that we had the plunge in 2001, the Dotcom Bubble, and most recently, the US Subprime crisis in 2008.

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/73859.jsp
http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/74057.jsp

Yes, the market eventually recovered, way above those times. Investors with long-term view who stayed high in their capital structure had recovered nicely. But did those margin users recover? I doubt so. Many of them still paying their debts now.

Another one of the best comments of the decade.


Posted by shinado > Mar 4, 2016 10:46 AM | Report Abuse

Desire to win? Don't want to think about risk? Only think about how much you might get back in return?

Come. Let me take you to the casino. I know of a perfect spot for you. What are you doing trading in stocks? Your return might not be very high. On the other hand, in the casino, your return is 100%. Also, if you lose, is 100% too. Can be done in matter of minutes or seconds.

Don't waste your time rambling about instincts in stock market. Go to the casino. Winner takes it all.

Posted by JT Yeo > Mar 4, 2016 07:32 AM | Report Abuse
During bullish years when most investors achieve market beating return, most began to take on excessive risk without consciously knowing that they are doing so either 1) overconfident in their ability 2) psychology of the market etc. And guess what, it is during the bull year that people are 'cash poor'!. Just like business, business are cash flow poor during expansion, not contraction.

So naturally people takes on margin finance during? Bull market obviously. We get comfortable. We see people die from cancer and thought 'that can only happen to someone else' and comfort ourselves. So you have all these factors working in your way, tailwind. Great return, illusion the market is safe (it's bull), cash poor (too many opportunity not enough money) all these lollapalooza makes one goes into margin.

That's where the shit comes. We forgot black swan. It is a bit like the idiocy of buy when market goes up, sell when market is down. In this case, is margin yourself during bullmarket, and bankrupt by bear. Obviously no one would margin in a down market. But that reasoning that it is okay to margin finance on bull market is precisely the thing that kills investors. Because you keep thinking 'accidents' only happen to other people.


Well said JT Yeo. That was exactly what happen to Shanghai Stock Exchange when it was at 5023 in June 2015, just nine months ago. The SSX was extremely bullish, wasn’t it?

http://klse.i3investor.com/blogs/kcchongnz/79429.jsp

SSX closed 2850 yesterday. The loss, just for the broad index is so far a whopping 42.3%, in just 9 months. And what do you think were the drop of share prices of individual stocks; many individual stocks were extremely bullish then. What is the result of margin finance which so many of them were using, in a bullish market?

However, I still think it is none of our business whether you use margin finance or not, or how much you have made, or have lost doing it. None of my business.

But publicly encouraging everyone, any Tom Dick and Harry, young and old, in seminars, in public forums? Something is very wrong, isn’t it?

May be not, if you have this type of mentality.

Posted by stockmanmy > Mar 3, 2016 05:00 PM | Report Abuse
stock market is war.
compound interest got no war.
stock market is war zone
come prepared.
margin best.

Posted by stockmanmy > Mar 3, 2016 10:54 AM | Report Abuse
What you talk?
Have you ever seen PHD in FA make money? No
Have you seen businessmen make money from stock market? Easy money .


Joel Greenblatt, a professor makes billions USD for himself and his investors. Josef Lakonishok, another PHD and university professor is another one.

Your turn. Which businessmen make billions USD from stock market?

Posted by murali > Mar 3, 2016 10:56 AM | Report Abuse
U need to learn KC's FA if u want to survive and make some money in stock market, but one day u have to go beyond that if u really want to be very successful in stock market...

Thanks for your kind words again above. Just a comment here.

If you read my article here again, you will see that there are so many super investors in the world making billions for themselves and their investors, just using fundamental value investing, and without margin financing.

Please show me some who have done as well using other methods of investing.

Posted by stockmanmy > Mar 3, 2016 10:48 AM | Report Abuse
What Fa what Ta?
It is instincts ......either you got it or you don't.


Best investment joke of the decade. Some more from a 60 year old "accountant"

Posted by murali > Mar 3, 2016 10:39 AM | Report Abuse

And I dont think U have the predictive power..yr FA is mainly on historical figures


You are right, Of course I do not have the predictive power. I am not a snake-oil salesman.

No, FA is not everything historical, though historical data may be used to analyze the business, and the economics, and past management actions.

Don't you think they are important too, compared to your prediction?

Posted by murali > Mar 3, 2016 10:38 AM | Report Abuse

We have to improve and equip ourselves with all the necessaries...FA, TA, market talks, goreng stories etc etc...so as to help us to beat them....

FA to me is a must. With FA, an investor can go very far, despite of what others say.

With FA, and help with TA, one may do much better. i said may.

With TA but without FA, in Bursa, sure die.

With TA but not in depth of FA, in my humble opinion, it is very dangerous too in Bursa.

Market talks, goreng stories? You will do better without them.

murali,

Btw, thanks for your comment here:



Posted by murali > Mar 3, 2016 09:19 AM | Report Abuse

Many people got killed in car accidents..I believe the number could be much much much much higher than those who jumped from high buildings or beaten by Along till death after they got burnt in stock market or margin ac....So do u want to ban the cars???

Before u started yr venture in stock market, make sure u learn FA first...go buy Cold Eye's books or sign up for KC's online FA courses (thought I admit I dont really understand his contents...)