Posted by starperformer > 2016-12-15 16:06 | Report Abuse

Dolly_chai, I have to disagree with u that u labelled me as biased towards Hevea. I'm presenting the facts and figures with accountable reasoning only. Nothing is biased and certainly I can't say EVERGRN earn more when it's shown otherwise for HEVEA. Are u really telling me that u are more comfortable to become a shareholder of a net debt company instantly by buying it's shares? Let me summarize so u can compare again:

Hevea's latest quarter report announced on 22 Nov 2016.
CASH AND BANK BALANCES 109,790,000
LONG TERM BORROWINGS 6,947,000
SHORT-TERM BORROWINGS 8,164,000
Total debts: 15,111,000
Cash - Total Borrowings = 94,679,000 (*NET CASH POSITION)
No. of shares in circulation: 500,851,890 shares
94,679,000(Net cash) / 500,851,890 shares = *Worth RM (0.189) net cash a piece


Evergreen's latest quarter report announced on 28 Nov 2016.
CASH AND BANK BALANCES 141,018,000
LONG TERM BORROWINGS 108,952,000
SHORT-TERM BORROWINGS 107,633,000
Total debts: 216,585,000
Cash - Total Borrowings = -75,567,000 (*NET DEBTS POSITION)
No. of shares in circulation: 846,423,985 shares
-75,567,000(Net debts) / 846,423,985 shares = *Worth approx. RM (-0.089) per share


Which gearing level better? You should see the obvious.

Posted by hng33 > 2016-12-15 16:07 | Report Abuse

bought evergreen at 97.5sen

Posted by hng33 > 2016-12-15 16:07 | Report Abuse

Market is big enough to accommodate both stock, hevea and evergreen, there is NO need to curse others to overstep another. USD strengthen should be win win to both.

Posted by Dolly_Chai > 2016-12-15 16:20 | Report Abuse

agree with hng33 and FreeAsABird...

Posted by Dolly_Chai > 2016-12-15 16:21 | Report Abuse

comparing 2 different business is not fair as different business requires different capital expenditure..

Posted by chompks > 2016-12-15 16:26 | Report Abuse

pipu still swimming here? Time is ripe to jump ship loh

Posted by starperformer > 2016-12-15 16:30 | Report Abuse

Both companies are competitor. Nothing more obvious than that. When u plan to subscribe new mobile phone line, do u not compare maxis, digi, celcom, etc? So u compare those telco SP also not fair as a consumer? real funny logic by dolly_chai.

Posted by hng33 > 2016-12-15 16:39 | Report Abuse

bought more at 97sen

Posted by hng33 > 2016-12-15 16:54 | Report Abuse

bought last bigger batch at 96.5sen, average holding cost 96.8sen

Posted by hewiester > 2016-12-15 17:18 | Report Abuse

Got rid most of it today at $1 cus is Friday tmrw (red day)

Posted by Dolly_Chai > 2016-12-15 17:42 | Report Abuse

you guys can see now why I said starperformer is a very biased person.
Actually he is not only a biased person, he is also not doing enough homework...
Why did I say so? he kept mentioning that Hevea and Evergreen are competitors to each other..
Let me ask him one question: Do you know what is the core business of Evergreen and Hevea?
I have mentioned it many times here but he seems to ignore that...

Ok, let me state in one more time... Most of Evergreen's sales are derived from MDF while Hevea is on particleboard.. if he does not even understand the nature of business between these 2 companies, where is his so-called logic? he is a real funny joker now...

Having said so, Hevea and Evergreen cannot be considered as direct competitors.
I know many ppl do not understand the difference between MDF, particleboard, plywood, veneer, timber, etc... for them, they will regard them as "wood" or "timber"... I hope starperformer is not one of them.. haha..

Posted by Dolly_Chai > 2016-12-15 17:50 | Report Abuse

as I mentioned before, Evergreen is investing in advanced automated machines that is more efficient and will reduce man-labor. That is why they spent more money on the capex. For example, they are investing in an imported new machine that can churn out thinner board to serve niche market (with better profit margin)... they were not doing that in the past... but they are now moving towards enhancing the profit margin by doing a lot of internal restructure to bring down costs (if you follow their latest updates)... that is why i am saying that Evergreen is "transforming" into higher margin market.. so the earning growth will be seen in 2017, 2018.... and that is why I said investing in Evergreen will potentially give more return as investors like earning growth (with improved profit margin as well).

Posted by starperformer > 2016-12-15 23:11 | Report Abuse

Just because I've presented analysis comparing on both Evergreen and Hevea which doesn't favour Evergreen, it does not mean I've bad intention or being biased entirrely. For the most part of the accounting facts & figures which remain as important metrics for any investors to gauge the current and future business performance of a company, one should consider the more tangible aspects to be more conclusive rather than one's opinion on the expansionary growth path which has yet to be completed and it takes times. Any expansionary plans can always be downsized or halted due to many factors so u do not want to be too hopeful to take into account on future earnings from expansionary plans that are unknowingly progressing.

Any downstream business is considered value-added such as Ready-to-Assemble (RTA) furniture business in which both Evergreen and Hevea are diversifying into that area. Such downstream business has higher profit margin due to it's highly customizable and crafty nature hence the maker can adjust the profitability accordingly. Automation by machineries will reduce labour costs and shorten the production time further so that is why both companies invest in more modern machineries and facilities for that purpose in this highly profitable RTA segment. A company may not survive or able to dominate certain product segments alone in the long-term so u can just expect both Evergreen and Hevea to compete heads-on each other. Still try to ignore they are not direct competitor? or u just not understanding the real direction and progress of both companies? Dolly_chai, if u don't know...u can always ask. I'm more than happy to help people to understand but I hope some people like you or stockraider should not mislead others.

To present my case study, Hevea has since diversified into RTA segment and recorded a 22% jump in revenue growth in this segment compared to previous year alone.

Cummulative 9 months quarterly earnings 2016:
Particleboards
Revenue 160,695,000
PBT 28,221,000

RTA Products
Revenue 234,130,000
PBT 32,513,000

RTA segment contributed approximately 59.30% of the cummulative revenues. Do u see RTA segment holds the key to Hevea's strong growth in the current year and it will do even better next year. Evergreen being the latecomer to this segment will suffer the shortcoming of being late to the game whereby RTA only contributes to 5% of their revenues (*See page 17 of Evergreen's Annual Report)

Posted by starperformer > 2016-12-15 23:23 | Report Abuse

Evergreen's ambitious expansionary plans to increase production capacity will increase it's own risk profile by over-relying on one particular product segment that is MDF. See the following statements taken out from Evergreen's own Annual report at page 17:

**The core business of the Group remained in manufacturing of Medium Density Fibreboard (MDF) which contributed approximately 80% of our revenue, while 15% is contributed from the downstream process which is the Value Added MDF and the remaining 5% is contributed by the Ready to Assemble (RTA) Furniture and other Wood Products. Our Particle Board plant remained idle since 2013 and is currently being upgraded in preparation for startup end of 2016.

With 80% revenues derived from MDF segment, EVERGREEN will be "extremely susceptible" to any price fluctuations for Medium Density Fibreboard (MDF) in the international market pricing. Hevea derived it's revenues approximately 60% from RTA and 40% from Particleboard. Well-balanced diversification.

Posted by leecuteguy > 2016-12-16 00:33 | Report Abuse

dolly chai n starperformer dun need to argue over which counter is good......the most important is the counter that u bought is good to win money for yourself that all.......

Posted by Tan Toh Fei > 2016-12-16 01:37 | Report Abuse

balance sheet wise, i prefer hevea than evergreen .... evergreen a bit too ambitious n greedy n taking risk ... not my flavour ....

Posted by starperformer > 2016-12-16 08:42 | Report Abuse

It is dead easy to shut & slam the critics if you really understand the wood-based businesses well.

Posted by chompks > 2016-12-16 11:07 | Report Abuse

looks like cannot up anymore. it follows sticking to trend down. SELL lol

Posted by Dolly_Chai > 2016-12-16 11:20 | Report Abuse

starperformer, i am fully aware of what you have posted there...
but you have not understood what i am trying to say:

Hevea is almost done with its transformation into RTA business so the growth will be slow...

Yes, evergreen is relatively smaller in scale in terms of higher profit margin RTA business.. but they are going into expand into that (not just RTA) but also premium grade particleboard and value added MDF (veneer, etc) which will give better profit margin (than the 80% raw MDF that they are selling now)... that means, the transformation is on-going and the "growth" in business and profit margin will be huge down 1-2 years as compared to Hevea who is almost done with their transformation...

That is why i said Evergreen has much more room to grow as compared to Hevea. And when that happens, investors will be interested to invest in Evergreen.

Posted by Dolly_Chai > 2016-12-16 11:49 | Report Abuse

and in terms of competition, why did i say they are not direct competitors?

See Evergreen 2015 Annual report, page 17:
On Our Market Share
We have market presence in more than 40 countries worldwide with over 600 customers base. Our market share in
Malaysia is 60% while the remaining is taken by our main competitor and other smaller players. All of our export sales
are dominated in US Dollars including export sales from our Indonesia and Thailand subsidiaries.

Evergreen has such a wide base of customers but Hevea's RTA and particleboards are mainly sold to Japan. Evergreen's sales are mainly to Middle East and South East Asia... and Hevea does NOT sell MDF...

So how could Evergreen and Hevea be direct competitors...

Yes, Evergreen is now expanding to build more RTA lines... but RTA market is big and there are different grades/types of RTA... RTA can be made of MDF and also particleboard with different specs... So I do not see they are competing with each other in this RTA market in the next few years too

Posted by starperformer > 2016-12-16 12:00 | Report Abuse

Dolly_chai, I think u are seriously an inaccurate and misleading commentator here. Have u forgotten what u just said yesterday that Evergreen is not a direct competitor to Hevea? Evergreen's own words printed on their latest annual report have stated that they are trying to start the particleboard product segment to be operational at year end of 2016 and they have started to rake in revenues from RTA segment too but just a mere 5% revenue contribution. Please read company's annual report and quarterly reports as well.

Hevea's RTA segment is operational in the early of 2012. It takes Hevea 2 years of ongoing capex and aggressive tweaks of operation plus marketing of RTA furniture products to achieve the high profit margin from this segment alone. If u want proof of these, I can show u but on a request basis. The particleboard segment is less susceptible to price fluctuations than MDF therefore the particleboard segment is proven to have an edge on ROI for the company to be very profitably stable. That is why Evergreen is trying it's best to restart the particleboard segment after it was stalled in 2013.

Latest recorded revenues by segments of both companies:

EVERGREEN
Medium density fibreboard (MDF): 80% of revenues contribution
Value-added MDF: 15% of revenues contribution
Ready-to-Assemble (RTA): 5% of revenues contribution

HEVEA
Particleboard: 40% of revenues contribution
Ready-to-Assemble (RTA): 60% of revenues contribution


Particleboard is more lightweight and cheaper in price than MDF and if u understand the global economy now, most consumers in various countries prefer a cheaper product to keep costs low. That is why Hevea is already far superior in terms of profit margin just from it's 2 segments alone. Evergreen is starting to feel "KIASU" and venturing into RTA and restarting the particleboard segment as well. Do u still not see all these are exactly reflected in Hevea's businesses and more importantly it's share price?

Posted by starperformer > 2016-12-16 12:13 | Report Abuse

My stock selection is solidly based on real fundamental of a company and if such a company has competitors then I will have to compare and check in-depths of the businesses very well. Evergreen's share price staying lower does not mean is a value buy based on what u think of their expansionary plans. Risks to Evergreen's expansionary plans to increase production output includes:

1) Possible downsizing or delayed due to higher fluctuating prices of MDF and weaker demand for MDF since it is over-reliant on 80% of revenues from this segment. Demand is for cheaper and lighter alternative that is particleboard.

2) Evergreen's expansionary plan and capex will strain it's already high debts currently stood at RM 216,585,000.00. Restarting it's particleboard segment and venturing into RTA will take at least 2 years to stabilize and to be profitable based on Hevea's past experiences and case studies. Therefore u can expect these 2 exercises alone can drag down it's revenues in the many quarters to come.

Posted by starperformer > 2016-12-16 12:26 | Report Abuse

Harder woods are needed to make MDF hence the name density. Particleboard can be made with different types of woods combined and pressingly molded to any sizes so that is very versatile and lightweight. u can check the prices in the Malaysian Timber Industry Board for wood and log prices. The process of making particleboard is also easier and faster with even lesser precision needed in the cutting stage.

Posted by hng33 > 2016-12-16 12:27 | Report Abuse

USD have further strengthen to 4.48 !!!!

Posted by Dolly_Chai > 2016-12-16 13:39 | Report Abuse

starperformer, againm you are comparing an apple to an orange... particleboard is lighter and cheaper but it is not AN ALTERNATIVE to MDF... they are of different quality and density, thus diferrent strength... some furniture uses light weight and lower grade particleboard but some furniture still uses MDF due to its application.

So you cannot say particleboard can totally replace MDF..

You did not follow Evergreen's news so I don't blame you...
Evergreen temporarily stopped the particleboard production in 2013 as their machines were old and they needed to import new, more advanced automated machines to produce premium and better quality particleboard... it is not like what you so-called "KIASU" that is very biased of you... based on this word "KIASU" alone, we can tell how biased you are and how much prejudice you have for Evergreen. if machines are old and not efficient (thus causing higher operational cost, do you still want to use them? Of course not, that is why Evergreen bought new machines that can produce higher grade particleboard which Hevea cannot produce.)
So they have niche market to sell these particleboards, where Hevea can never tap into.

In terms of RTA expansion, i know it will take time but not necessarily 2 years like Hevea.. different companies have different management and speed. Don't judge Evergreen based on Hevea's past record. Ok, even if 2 years, so what? A good share that can give you potentially 100% or more profit, are you willing to wait for 2 years. Yes, i am.

Based on all your comments, I can conclude that you are indeed very biased and have much prejudice on Evergreen.

Otherwise, you have your own agenda trying to pull down Evergreen's price (as you know it is worth to invest), and are waiting to collect cheap. Otherwise, why spend so much time here at Evergreen forum?

Posted by Sephy > 2016-12-16 13:44 | Report Abuse

Wow. Usdmyr 4.478 liao. Where are heading now??

Posted by Gummy88 > 2016-12-16 14:58 | Report Abuse

starperformer Harder woods are needed to make MDF hence the name density. Particleboard can be made with different types of woods combined and pressingly molded to any sizes so that is very versatile and lightweight. u can check the prices in the Malaysian Timber Industry Board for wood and log prices. The process of making particleboard is also easier and faster with even lesser precision needed in the cutting stage.
16/12/2016 12:26

starperformer how sure are u about the whole sector? u so pandai go write analysis la.. go work as analyst in investment bank

Posted by Dolly_Chai > 2016-12-16 15:02 | Report Abuse

haha....Gummy88 just whacked starperformer gaogao here... nice...

Posted by starperformer > 2016-12-16 15:41 | Report Abuse

Doly_chai, whether u like it or not...the demand is shifting to particleboard which is more lightweight, cheaper in prices, cheaper to transport around hence cheaper logistic & labour costs. Just a logical thinking would open up your mind to know that Evergreen is going to restart it's long abandoned particleboard segment and this has obviously tells u that Evergreen wants a piece of the particleboard market share pie which has been dominated by Hevea and Hevea has been doing so great and profitable until Hevea is in net cash position.

Fast forward to this day, Evergreen still in net debts position and is highly geared because it is over-reliant on one particular product segment that is MDF with 80% of revenues from it. After years of losing it to Hevea, now then Evergreen realizes that both the particleboard and RTA segments are the key to Hevea's higher profit margin and this enable it to amassed and retained more cash earnings with prudent management practice. Look below for it:

Below as indicated are the round-up of EVERGREEN and HEVEA profit margin:

EVERGREEN
2012: 3.2%
2013: -4.5%
2014: 0%
2015: 9.1%
2016: 7.3%


HEVEA
2012: 4.1% (Hevea's RTA segment started operation in early of 2012)
2013: 5.7% (Continuation of CAPEX throughout the year for more automation for RTA)
2014: 7.2%
2015: 14.7%
2016: 13.3%

Do u not see how RTA segment has propelled HEVEA to what it is today and it is reflected in the share price as well? What is the trend of share price for HEVEA and EVERGREEN respectively?

Posted by starperformer > 2016-12-16 15:44 | Report Abuse

Gummy88 is another new ID used by Dolly_chai lol. When people like this refused to accept the loss is when they use different ID to attack the critics lol

Posted by lishamw > 2016-12-16 16:21 | Report Abuse

kpe pancut balik low gear ni adui.....

Posted by eskaylien > 2016-12-16 18:12 | Report Abuse

Starperformer is talking about the past and present situation (2014-2016 for Hevea) and Dolly is talking about the future (2017- 2018 for evergreen).

Both are right in their own way.

BUT, stockmarket looks to the future......

Therefore, Evergreen must execute well their transformation in order to justify Dolly's (and mine too, hehe) faith in Evergreen's shares.

Posted by Olga > 2016-12-16 22:41 | Report Abuse

Ok, tribute to my mentor Gummy88... I myself lack interest of evergreen as i did not look into it consistently..

Evergreen and hevea.. sum up is particle board plus etc..
Everything is good about particleboard on the manufacturing side..
Just one thing.. how are the market doing in nations of the clients of hevea and evergreen..
Now, it is a global rebalancing with our new big brother trump..
It has been a global slowdown of economy.. reflecting in the demand..
Stronger us dollar is good for hevea and evergreen..

i believe gummy88 was just joking.. sound more like a joke..
And how is gummy88 dolly chai?

Posted by Olga > 2016-12-16 22:43 | Report Abuse

Dolly_Chai haha....Gummy88 just whacked starperformer gaogao here... nice...
16/12/2016 15:02

Mentor gummy88.. u whacked people these days??

Posted by Olga > 2016-12-16 22:43 | Report Abuse

I tell your father

Posted by starperformer > 2016-12-17 00:10 | Report Abuse

Gummy88 is a new ID with just 9 comments. Only Olga took the trouble to cross referencing to this ID. Isn't it obviously fishy? Lol

Posted by starperformer > 2016-12-17 07:04 | Report Abuse

eskaylien, u want to speculate the future ahead? First, u must check whether a company has set a good direction for itself and especially what kind of product segments in the offering to clients. The future is the consequence of today's actions. Don't invest blindly based on what u think that u know. Do a thorough research.

Posted by stockraider > 2016-12-17 08:39 | Report Abuse

Why Hevea earnings not so strong as it seems when compare to Evergreen loh ?

Hevea Latest QTR Earnings Rm 17M x 4 = Rm 58M annualsed Earnings
Hevea nos share plus warrant 501M + 68M = 569M
Annualised EPS of Hevea =rm 58m div 569M = Rm 0.102
Share price Rm 1.52 thus PE 15x for Hevea very very high loh...!!!

Posted by stockraider > 2016-12-17 08:44 | Report Abuse

CORRECTION

Evergreen Latest QTR Earnings Rm 17M x 4 = Rm 68M annualsed Earnings
Hevea nos share plus warrant 501M + 68M = 569M
Annualised EPS of Hevea =rm 68m div 569M = Rm 0.12
Share price Rm 1.52 thus PE 13x for Hevea consider not undervalue loh...!!!

Posted by stockraider > 2016-12-17 08:50 | Report Abuse

Superimpose to Evergreen

Evergreen Latest QTR Earnings Rm 16M x 4 = Rm 64M annualsed Earnings
Evergreen nos share plus warrant = 846M
Annualised EPS of Hevea =rm 64m div 846M = Rm 0.08
Share price Rm 0.955 thus PE 12x for Evergreen consider better than Hevea PE 13x loh...!!!

Posted by stockraider > 2016-12-17 08:58 | Report Abuse

Why Hevea earnings not so strong as it seems when compare to Evergreen loh ?

Hevea Latest QTR Earnings Rm 17M x 4 = Rm 68M annualsed Earnings
Hevea nos share plus warrant 501M + 68M = 569M
Annualised EPS of Hevea =rm 68m div 569M = Rm 0.12
Share price Rm 1.52 thus PE 13x for Hevea consider not undervalue loh...!!!


Evergreen Latest QTR Earnings Rm 16M x 4 = Rm 64M annualsed Earnings
Evergreen nos share plus warrant = 846M
Annualised EPS of Hevea =rm 64m div 846M = Rm 0.08
Share price Rm 0.955 thus PE 12x for Evergreen consider better than Hevea PE 13x loh...!!!

SO IF PEOPLE DEPEND ON HEVEA AS A GOOD EARNERS BUT THEIR EARNINGS ARE NOT BETTER THAN EVERGREEN MAH....!!
IN ADDITION EVERGREEN HAS MUCH BETTER VALUE SUCH AS BIGGER TURNOVER,SHAREHOLDER FUNDS .
THE NTA PER SHARE OF RM 1.35 AND PE 12X MORE MORE SUPERIOR THAN HEVEA NTA PER SHARE RM 0.85 AND PE 13X LOH...!!

Posted by Gummy88 > 2016-12-17 09:22 | Report Abuse

starperformer aka mr-know-it-all..haha..

Posted by slts > 2016-12-17 11:25 | Report Abuse

i say both also not good
better put monies into FD lol

Posted by myportfolio > 2016-12-17 13:12 | Report Abuse

Looking terrific with MYR 4.47 against greenback!

Posted by myportfolio > 2016-12-17 13:13 | Report Abuse

remember... evergreen revenue is measured in USD *strong greenback will reflect well* in evergreen QR ;)

Posted by Olga > 2016-12-19 01:44 | Report Abuse

starperformer Gummy88 is a new ID with just 9 comments. Only Olga took the trouble to cross referencing to this ID. Isn't it obviously fishy? Lol
17/12/2016 00:10

Olga Ok, tribute to my mentor Gummy88... I myself lack interest of evergreen as i did not look into it consistently..

Evergreen and hevea.. sum up is particle board plus etc..
Everything is good about particleboard on the manufacturing side..
Just one thing.. how are the market doing in nations of the clients of hevea and evergreen..
Now, it is a global rebalancing with our new big brother trump..
It has been a global slowdown of economy.. reflecting in the demand..
Stronger us dollar is good for hevea and evergreen..

i believe gummy88 was just joking.. sound more like a joke..
And how is gummy88 dolly chai?
16/12/2016 22:41

starperformer.. do u understand?

Posted by starperformer > 2016-12-19 07:34 | Report Abuse

dolly_chai, stockraider and olga are almost same person? I've no doubt and I've presented the fundamental facts and figures on both stocks. The records and share price of both stocks will speak for themselves based on what had been uncovered. Thank u!

Posted by Olga > 2016-12-19 08:10 | Report Abuse

i think stockraider has a better brain.. seriously..

Posted by Olga > 2016-12-19 08:11 | Report Abuse

a person can take so much effort to promote a stock down..

Posted by Olga > 2016-12-19 08:11 | Report Abuse

obvious? no doubt?