Posted by passerby > 2012-09-07 08:52 | Report Abuse

:), not much gold bugs here. can be quite boring to discuss this topic

Posted by Mat Cendana > 2012-09-07 08:55 | Report Abuse

Hey, I'm one!:-) I have part of my capital in physical gold. This is an insurance to protect against the very real possibility of central banks printing ever more money.

Posted by jester > 2012-09-07 08:57 | Report Abuse

Good calculated risk taking there Mat Cendana.
I don't have physical gold yet in my portfolio. Perhaps soon!

Posted by passerby > 2012-09-07 13:27 | Report Abuse

Pak MC: surprise to know you is one the bugs. Physical gold if want to dispose very troublesome & time consuming la, want to keep at home also worry about being stolen.

Better go consider ETF - SPDR Gold (10USD) listed at SGX or NYSE, I prefer the former one. SGX time zone same as KL time zone.

If gold price spike, the silver price will spike also. Alternative to trade silver is at Silver iShares listed at NYSE under symbol SLV.

If you want to track the real-time price movement for US listed counters for free, you can try this site:http://www.batstrading.com/

Posted by tonylim > 2012-09-07 13:33 | Report Abuse

passerby, How long have been involved in SLV?

Posted by Mat Cendana > 2012-09-07 20:51 | Report Abuse

I've been interested in gold and silver since a few years ago after I stumbled on this site: http://DailyReckoning.com Although it is a US-centric site, I like their writings and thought-provoking articles. I would always find the time and never fail to read their newsletters. But I couldn't be involved with precious metals, stockmarkets, futures markets and the likes at that time since one needs capital. And I was in poverty then. Seriously.

But through the Grace of God, I'm now in a better situation and being able to be involved in investing and speculating albeit with just a small capital at the moment. The physical gold - this belongs to my wife actually in the form of jewellery and wafers. She already had them before we were married (both of us had previous marriages) in 2011 - bought when gold was from RM40-60/gram. She had actually forgotten about their existence and was in a trusted relative's safekeeping, would you believe it! I had wanted to have some physical gold but was hindered by the high cost now which I feel should be better utilised towards investing in other form. The stockmarket, for instance. So I was extremely happy and relieved that we actually already have this.

The main reason is this (I'm influenced by the DailyReckoning's "Trust no government" trait): if it is just certificates, the possibility remains of a desperate government `confiscating' it during financial crisis. They won't just seize it just like that, of course. What they will do is to forcibly exchange it with a currency of their choosing (US dollar, ringgit or whatever) and at their conversion rate.

It had happened before including in the so-called "Centre of freedom and democracy" USA during President Franklin Roosevelt's time, if I'm not mistaken. What's to stop them from twisting the hands of the banks' or institutions that hold the gold into complying? It doesn't matter if the gold is stored in another country like Singapore etc. for Uncle Sam does have the bullying power. Extreme, yes. Impossible, no. If it or other governments are desperate enough, they will. They can't do that with physical gold in your own safe-keeping (I'll continue in another comment - gotten too long).

Posted by Mat Cendana > 2012-09-07 21:05 | Report Abuse

Storage is a consideration for physical gold (and silver). That's why we're looking to rent a safe deposit box...when we have a bit more:-) We are also considering to take a loan, using it as collateral to be used as further capital to invest in the various markets. But we simply won't sell because I feel having a certain percentage in precious metal that we have immediate access to is A MUST. In times of trouble, including financial crisis and shortage of essential items, precious metals are much more useful and powerful than paper money. Remember the Jews in Nazi-occupied territories during WWII? And various such events in history? Many survived because they had precious metals.

But, as a trader, I'm also interested in ETF and am looking to be more involved. Was considering it last March when we had some capital - was very interested in silver which was at US$32 then. But we decided on BSKL since capital was limited. Turned out to be a good decision because silver went down after that to $27 or so. Would only be breaking even had we gone in then.

By the way, this Malaysis-centric site is quite informative when it comes to silver (and gold): http://investsilvermalaysia.com/

Posted by Mat Cendana > 2012-09-07 22:33 | Report Abuse

Gold now at US$ 1,727 per ounce!

Posted by franksoweto > 2012-09-07 22:54 | Report Abuse

gold gold gold hehe
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-is-putin-stockpiling-gold-2012-09-05?dist=lcountdown
if you guys need another site for tracking precious metals try this .kitco.com
cheers gold gold gold hehe

Posted by jpleow > 2012-09-08 10:48 | Report Abuse

Below is an extract from an article written by Warren Buffett in Feb 2012:

Today the world's gold stock is about 170,000 metric tons. If all of this gold were melded together, it would form a cube of about 68 feet per side. (Picture it fitting comfortably within a baseball infield.) At $1,750 per ounce -- gold's price as I write this -- its value would be about $9.6 trillion. Call this cube pile A.

Let's now create a pile B costing an equal amount. For that, we could buy all U.S. cropland (400 million acres with output of about $200 billion annually), plus 16 Exxon Mobils (the world's most profitable company, one earning more than $40 billion annually). After these purchases, we would have about $1 trillion left over for walking-around money (no sense feeling strapped after this buying binge). Can you imagine an investor with $9.6 trillion selecting pile A over pile B?

Beyond the staggering valuation given the existing stock of gold, current prices make today's annual production of gold command about $160 billion. Buyers -- whether jewelry and industrial users, frightened individuals, or speculators -- must continually absorb this additional supply to merely maintain an equilibrium at present prices.

A century from now the 400 million acres of farmland will have produced staggering amounts of corn, wheat, cotton, and other crops -- and will continue to produce that valuable bounty, whatever the currency may be. Exxon Mobil (XOM) will probably have delivered trillions of dollars in dividends to its owners and will also hold assets worth many more trillions (and, remember, you get 16 Exxons). The 170,000 tons of gold will be unchanged in size and still incapable of producing anything. You can fondle the cube, but it will not respond.

Admittedly, when people a century from now are fearful, it's likely many will still rush to gold. I'm confident, however, that the $9.6 trillion current valuation of pile A will compound over the century at a rate far inferior to that achieved by pile B.

Posted by angsri > 2012-09-08 11:10 | Report Abuse

Diversify is the best policy. Keep some gold, silver, property, land & stocks. Just don't have everything in the same basket.

Posted by franksoweto > 2012-09-08 11:29 | Report Abuse

yep WB was and is still never big on gold due to it's limited usefulness. He was big into silver years back and I remembered he got in a huge position at around 7 usd/oz and it actually dropped to 5 I think a few years later but he is into very long term and might still have in his portfolio. The current rally in precious metals are mainly due to increase of currency supplies and rally will continue until major central banks stop freely printing worthless toilet papers :)

Posted by KC Loh > 2012-09-08 11:32 | Report Abuse

Buffett realised many are missing the point to be greedy then the market is fearful. Running to safe heaven of gold is one thing. Missing buying excellent company at bargain price is another!

Posted by franksoweto > 2012-09-08 11:36 | Report Abuse

I rather miss the safe heaven of buying into gold :)

Posted by kong73 > 2012-09-08 11:56 | Report Abuse

jpleow..thanks for sharing man..what a perspective!

Posted by Mat Cendana > 2012-09-08 12:25 | Report Abuse

Looks like Ben Bernanke's hand is being forced to unleash Quantitative Easing 3 (QE3) by the latest report of a very disappointing jobs situation in the US http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/07/us-markets-global-idUSBRE86F00620120907

This, plus the ECB's intention to purchase those bonds will mean more money-printing. Gold is the immediate beneficiary and the market is pricing in the anticipated flow of more paper money into the financial system. I think the stockmarket, including ours, will also benefit because the money from the US and Europe will have to go somewhere. Might be wise to buy some quality stocks on weakness. If you have gold, hold on tightly and not sell yet despite the temptation.

I just hope our government and Bank Negara are prepared to deal with this new round of money flowing in to minimise the negative consequences of inflation and the increase in price of essential goods. What would happen when Brent crude oil goes above US$130, which is very likely when the dollar loses value? How much can our government continue to subsidise RON95 without hurting the budget?

Buying and hoarding gold as mentioned by Buffett won't help industries and the general economy, true. But there's also the need to protect one's self and also to try and benefit from a financial system flush with new money. Having a certain percentage in gold is one way - it will always be very valuable and easily convertible (and to the holder's advantage). Currencies are a different matter. We must watch these events closely because there will be various opportunities. Having dry gunpowder in hand in the form of cash or physical gold is always an advantage.

Posted by KC Loh > 2012-09-08 12:38 | Report Abuse

Job report in tandem with a recovering employment data. Just that analysts and research houses wants the now and immediate. Anyway, QE is expected since last meeting of FOMC. So I am looking for good time by Monday to leverage an exit from many inside my portfolio :)

Posted by Mat Cendana > 2012-09-08 12:38 | Report Abuse

kong73, these are a couple of articles that offer an alternative view to Buffett's opinion about gold. Note how, a great investor that he may be, Buffett's portfolio was/is beaten by gold:

"Warren Buffett Scorns Gold. Bad Move!"
http://dailyreckoning.com/warren-buffett-scorns-gold-bad-move/

"On Jelly Donuts and Gold"
http://dailyreckoning.com/on-jelly-donuts-and-gold/

Posted by jpleow > 2012-09-08 12:56 | Report Abuse

As proven in the past, in the long term, WB wins!

Posted by Mat Cendana > 2012-09-08 13:33 | Report Abuse

Perhaps. But don't forget it was his close ties with top US government decision-makers that had helped save and then made profits for his Berkshire Hathaway portfolio during the financial crisis. Especially in sweetheart deals to save the likes of Goldman Sachs and other seeming blue chips where Buffett got prices to his advantage (and at the medium and long-term expense of the common US citizen). The joys and pleasures of cronyism! The Americans take it to whole new level and scale.

But that's his record in the past, as pointed out in the articles. Times and situations have changed and are much more volatile now than when Buffett had started. Shares have their merits and strengths, and I'm into them too. Not to mention `stupid' call and put warrants (anything that has the potential to make and protect capital, I'm in).

But ignore gold and precious metals at one's peril or potential failure to benefit; as Buffett famously did over the past decade or so. These are assets that have survived and prospered over CENTURIES and will be around much, much longer than Buffett and Berkshire Hathaway. Unless if nanotechnology advances to a level where it can create base metals by adding, subtracting and moving around atoms and protons (not totally impossible).

Until such a time, and in view of the interesting times that we now live in and the proven facts and figures of its performance, a prudent investor should allocate part of his capital towards it. And with countries like China and India having a lot of their reserves in gold... well, I know who I'm going to side with.

The US and EU - great and progressive that they are now, I believe the big wheel is moving against them, no thanks to their discarding the gold standard, overly printing money and massive debts especially. They will get crushed by the wheel of their own making and taking many of their great companies out too. I think there will come the time when the world will say "Enough!" and no longer accept the dollar, euro etc... and governments will have to peg it somewhat to gold again. And where will Buffett and Berkshire be with their mega-tons of shares? But don't worry just yet for this is in the future. That means there is still some life left in the stockmarkets and shares as we now know it.

Nothing personal against Buffett or his followers and fans: but one thing I'm very confident of is that Buffett will survive and probably prosper but, percentage-wise, gold will beat him and Berskshire.

Posted by jpleow > 2012-09-08 14:06 | Report Abuse

During the dot com bubble, WB was laughed at for not investing in dot com companies. When the dot com bubble burst, WB was the one who got the last laugh.

History will repeat itself, all bubbles will burst in the end and it’s just a matter of time!

Posted by Mat Cendana > 2012-09-08 14:10 | Report Abuse

Not to bash Warren Buffett (despite the title below) for I know many idolise him - a person seen as *the* role model for investors (and antagonising them agaisnt me in the process). Never mind if there are other great and possibly greater investors who aren't too familiar to the general public because of their smaller portfolios. While acknowledging his accomplishments, I feel Buffett has been put on a too-high a pedestal. Many are afraid to say anything negative against him for fear of attacks that can turn personal and are irrelevant. Like "So, where's YOUR billions of dollars??" etc.

So, even at the risk of antagonising Buffett's legions of fans, alternative opinions and critics of him and Berkshire must be heard and their arguments considered so that we will have a more balanced view. After all, this (investing) involves *our* money so it is wise to have a broader and deeper view of things and various workings of the giants involved.

"Bashing Buffett…Once Again With Feeling"
http://dailyreckoning.com/bashing-buffett-once-again-with-feeling/

Posted by KC Loh > 2012-09-08 14:32 | Report Abuse

i am one for gold during time of crisis! Gold always stay true to its value! Learnt that long time ago when older folks keeps gold no matter what! those long holding on gold may be spot-on for the coming fiscal cliff. I still think money should be backed up by gold, of which China will be the biggest economy by miles!

I am not a blind follower of Buffett, just following his principles of common sense personified. in saying that however, i note this dailyreckoning.com site takes pleasure in bashing Buffett, probably to gain attention and fast track their climb to prominence. Same theory again, "to be the man, you got to beat the Man!" take an overall view of their stance also as it may not necessarily be healthy. What Buffett said is probably taken out of context, because at a certain value of gold, price will come back to that. the 11 year climb has been since the fiscal debt of US is increasing year by year. it will still rise if US doesn't do anything about it. I recall a report previously that US has a means to pare down their debt if they want and the trillion over debt could easily be overcomed within 12 (or was it 15 years?) due to their "creative" workforce and strength of many heavyweight industries that are household names! Apple, Wal Mart, Citigroup, etc. just to name some of them. Buffett got it right when he said the economy can be fixed. just watch the explanation here: http://www.cnbc.com/id/45078444/Warren_Buffett_s_Smile_Missing_as_His_5_Minute_Deficit_Fix_Hits_Facebook

Posted by KC Loh > 2012-09-08 14:45 | Report Abuse

seeking a balance :

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-12-19/news/30534246_1_gold-loans-gold-prices-world-gold-council

http://seekingalpha.com/article/776061-peter-schiff-gold-priced-for-a-crash

Posted by Mat Cendana > 2012-09-08 17:47 | Report Abuse

I actually admire Buffett not for his investing success but more so for the distribution of his wealth for charity. I had reviewed a book for The Star a few years ago where he and Bill Gates especially are undertaking this project towards the betterment of others through the Gates foundation, among others. But most of the wealth will only be distributed after their death although no one would actually question that. This says a lot about them and their exemplary conduct which is quite unlike most other super-rich (or even just plain rich) people.

Anyway, since Passerby started this post, I've gotten even more interested in gold and silver. Maybe it's time to go beyond having physical gold and diversify into also trading them. Physical gold is for confidence and security but it will have to be through trading to make the real money.

It's a good thing actually when there are those who believe gold is in a bubble and will crash. Because that will check it from going up too high. Even if they are right and gold does crash, this is something which we can profit from... if we short it at the right time. I'm a trader, first and foremost, and that means not having emotional attachment to anything - not gold, not shares, not property, not currencies nor commodities. If "Sell" is likely to be beneficial *for me* (selfish as it sounds), that's what I'll do. And vice-versa with Buy.

But I'm a total newbie when it comes to futures trading. Have never done this, including with indexes. I think it's about time to diversify. One thing about BSKL shares is that we can't short sell, and that's an advantage trading-wise. No, -HA warrants don't quite cut it as pure short selling. That means we can only profit when things move up. But why not also profit when they go down??

Posted by King Kong73 > 2012-09-08 17:58 | Report Abuse

i dunno about you guys but goldfinger is my fav bond movie. Ok i have no gold..only buy for the missus only from my company bonus.

Posted by Mat Cendana > 2012-09-08 18:29 | Report Abuse

Kong, that means you *do* have gold. That's a good thing. By the way, if I have the money, I'd buy those gold coins - Kijang Mas, Canadian Maple, Kruggerand and whatever else. There's an aura and a certain power to just hold and look at them. Unfortunately, since capital is limited, and at current sky-high prices, I can't afford this luxurious object of beauty. Hopefully one day I'll make enough from the poor man's alternatives of warrants and penny stocks and be able to buy a collection of gold coins. Maybe I can start with silver coins which are a lot cheaper.

Posted by King Kong73 > 2012-09-08 18:40 | Report Abuse

collect gold coins mat..go for it...

Posted by angsri > 2012-09-08 19:04 | Report Abuse

I tried buying kijang gold at maybank but told to wait for someone to sell. Anyone got idea to purchase them.

Posted by KC Loh > 2012-09-08 19:23 | Report Abuse

go la pawn shop and buy! summore genuine gold collected there! and must be a good negotiator! :)

Posted by Mat Cendana > 2012-09-08 20:36 | Report Abuse

There are a few companies selling (and buying) the Kijang Mas and I've seen a few of their websites. But I can't remember what their names are. Have to be careful though about banking in money. Must ensure they are legitimate. But I'm sure the genuine ones have offices.

Then there's the question of price for there's a certain premium to pay when it comes to coins. Then again, there are also premiums when it comes to bars and also jewellery. As middlemen, their selling rates might be higher than the banks. But for all you know a few might actually be able to offer less since they want to compete.

By the way, it's interesting that Maybank has asked you to wait. This means people who had bought them seem to be holding very tightly to the Kijang Mas. It might be way easier to buy other coins like the Maple Leaf. Jeez, just talking about the coins here is making me keener about getting them!

Posted by Mat Cendana > 2012-09-08 20:49 | Report Abuse

If one is okay with `cikai brand' coins and wafers, companies like Alliance and Public Gold (I don't think are connected to Alliance Bank and Public Bank) have these. With Alliance, there's no premium - very simple and uncomplicated selling and buying prices. Gold is gold, true, but... they are not KijangMas or Maple Leaf and therefore don't have the same aura. This explains why people are willing to pay the premium. But at least buyers have the choice - if they just want plain vanilla coins or wafers, these will do just fine.
http://www.alliancegold.com.my/page/default.aspx

Posted by Cy Low > 2012-09-08 21:15 | Report Abuse

BUY ALL YOU CAN !

Posted by samsu > 2012-09-09 14:25 | Report Abuse

angsri..i'm collector for the gold coin..kijang mas,maple,kanggaroo etc..maybank not have stock now..fi you want buy, u can buy with another person..u can join our group at fb..many group for gold at fb..i just take some profit at stock market and buy gold coins for saving..diversity your invenst and u can smile everytime..;-)

Posted by Mat Cendana > 2012-09-10 00:13 | Report Abuse

Just came back just now from a Raya function at a sister-in-law's house. Discovered that a relative is into gold trading through a Panama-registered company based in Dubai - Virgin Gold or something like that. Been involved since August last year. Although he had lost some money earlier on after gold went down after its peak in September, this relative not only recovered it back after that but also doubled his capital in 4 months. Now that got me VERY interested:-) Will be meeting with him again soon on this. We'll see how it goes.

By the way, an interesting article related to the topic here:
"What Can Gold Do For You?"
http://bit.ly/SvgY8z

Posted by Hustle > 2012-09-10 00:55 | Report Abuse

Honestly what KC said have it's point,the investment on whatever kind of form doesn't matter.It just depends on yourself.If you have very strong knowledge in precious metal then go ahead,if not,better invest on thing that you know better and frequently generate cash flow.

Posted by wolverine > 2012-09-10 04:39 | Report Abuse

I was interested in investing in gold and approached HSBC. They adviced me to invest in AMPRECIOUS METAL. In retrospect I think it was a wrong investment advice.

Posted by passerby > 2012-09-10 12:12 | Report Abuse

30 ++ over posts in 2 days for gold topic...somehow manage to attract gold bugs here

Posted by passerby > 2012-09-14 10:18 | Report Abuse

speculation success , Pak MC watch out your physical golds !

Posted by potenza10 > 2012-09-14 10:21 | Report Abuse

angsri...you wanna buy Kijang Emas???

Posted by jpleow > 2013-04-20 13:58 | Report Abuse

With gold bubble bursting, once again, Warren Buffett is proven correct!