Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-22 15:34 | Report Abuse

@dumbMoney....too bad when you speak up on COL has been taken by TTB personally. Even I speak up because when things are not right.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-22 15:36 | Report Abuse

@Patient Investor though you questions were directed to dumbMoney....my view is this......cease fire. When TTB keep publishing his newsletter calling other as running dogs, wreckers..surely people will need to reply to that. During these exchanges you already know it's good for iCap reputation especially we rebutted with many credible points.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-22 15:37 | Report Abuse

*not good

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-22 15:40 | Report Abuse

It's quite sad also to see TTB is dragging other alma mater into the fight.....when you go out and fight you won't dragging other people's family into the fight, don't we?

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-22 15:42 | Report Abuse

All these are not good to attract new retail investors as you said. TTB don't need to put down on others to elevate himself to attract new retail investors.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2024-01-22 15:43 | Report Abuse

My aim is to educate the retail investor on the conventional wisdom of investment management. For example, the novel dividend policy with DRIP may not a magic bullet that will fix the price discount problem, and now that it has been fired already, what is the result?

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-22 16:03 | Report Abuse

21% -24% discount still.....as expected when people pricing in 4% dividend(1% base + another 3% from discount between NAV and market price).

New investor needs to know their return expectations should be from market price to market price and should not be from market price to NAV.

Even REITs, majority of them are selling at a discount with exceptions on a few like IGB Reit....even one of best located REITs like KLCC is only trading at book value.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-22 16:09 | Report Abuse

The only period was truly unusual was when iCap was selling at 40% discounts.....cash/share was nearly $ 2 when iCap was selling at market price between 1.7++ - 2.2.....that was the period attracted my return to own 1 share but now have sold out some, left with only 0.5 share 😂😂

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-22 16:12 | Report Abuse

So I won't be so stugid to shoot myself in the foot by bad mouthing iCAP. I wish iCap doing well but really cannot tahan TTB only. 😂😂

Posted by Patient Investor > 2024-01-22 22:37 | Report Abuse

@dumbmoney I only aware your name LKK was called out during AGM, was your photo being flashed on screen?
No need to worry for your life, even hostile takeover during EGM/AGM wont result in blood sheds in Malaysia. Malaysia chinese comes with a loud voice but soft in action.

I would be patiently waiting for your reply on why do you keep vested despite being treated like such. And why COL keep buying despite such bad relationship with Mr.Tan. If this is not a close end fund, institution investor would have dispose their stake even losing money.

COL overall is buying, but they also sell along the way, which is common in share price manipulation. This is being showcased by the two academician during AGM, if they are lying, why not COL drag both to court?

Posted by Patient Investor > 2024-01-22 22:40 | Report Abuse

@icap local shareholder, lets hold on to our shares and only queue sell as close to NAV level as possible, if NAV level is met, then queue at premium level.
Let's see if COL willing to pay a price in closing the gap or get a controlling stake before March hearing.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2024-01-22 23:11 | Report Abuse

@Patient Investor. My photo was flashed on the screen during the 2022 AGM. In case you are not aware, one of Bursa's staff in the regulatory department was attacked with acid in the past.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2024-01-22 23:28 | Report Abuse

I did not track the individual trades of COL in the past, only tallied up their positions at the end of the financial years as shown in the annual reports, which showed they were net buyers. Only after the injunction was lifted did I track the daily trades. As to why are they still buying, I have no idea, because they are supposed to be passive investors. What we now have is a Mexican standoff situation, both sides cannot get rid of the other, should be fun to watch.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-22 23:52 | Report Abuse

Why don't sell? In a bull market ma, sell iCap put money in Insas and JTiasa also okay ma....why dumb dumb sitting on dead money?

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-23 09:09 | Report Abuse

I think it is better that I clarified on my previous post

>>>>>>
FastMoney666

Why don't sell? In a bull market ma, sell iCap put money in Insas and JTiasa also okay ma....why dumb dumb sitting on dead money?

8 hours ago
>>>>>>>

This was a cheeky post while there are "truths" these counters undervalued somewhat but it is also subjected to sentiments - if people like it, they will keep chasing especially even the Edge Tong's portfolio sold Maybank position and switched to Insas -WC at 0.42. This is an aggressive move and performed by a very advanced player.

When they think the affair it's over, price can come down rapidly. This what I am referring advanced player as the person is also able to control their emotion extreme well and very well discipline when it's time to exit.

My only point is people do have a choice.....when they exit they do have a lot of other reasons. Either they see undervalued propositions in other counters or simply need cash.....or may be they see limited upside in the near term iCap.

Posted by Patient Investor > 2024-01-24 22:48 | Report Abuse

Shareholder Activism Threatens Closed-End Funds and Their Investors
https://www.ici.org/viewpoints/23-closed-end-fund-threats

Hedgefund hostile takeover of Close End Fund.
https://www.pionline.com/hedge-funds/saba-capital-takes-blackrock-other-managers-closed-end-funds-trading-discount.

If they can attack BlackRock CEF and Adams CEF, As icap long term investor we better not let our guard down.

Is the COL issue being overplayed by Mr.Tan? maybe, but better overplay than underplay.
Is the fund manager doing a good job in managing the fund? If he is not, why is COL keep buying unless they have other agendas not aligned with long term investor.

Posted by Patient Investor > 2024-01-24 22:48 | Report Abuse

Shareholder Activism Threatens Closed-End Funds and Their Investors
https://www.ici.org/viewpoints/23-closed-end-fund-threats

Hedgefund hostile takeover of Close End Fund.
https://www.pionline.com/hedge-funds/saba-capital-takes-blackrock-other-managers-closed-end-funds-trading-discount.

If they can attack BlackRock CEF and Adams CEF, As icap long term investor we better not let our guard down.

Is the COL issue being overplayed by Mr.Tan? maybe, but better overplay than underplay.
Is the fund manager doing a good job in managing the fund? If he is not, why is COL keep buying unless they have other agendas not aligned with long term investor.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2024-01-25 06:44 | Report Abuse

There were 4 major bank managed CEF's in Singapore, later reduced to 3 following the merger of OUB with UOB, All of them went into members voluntary liquidation, not by shareholders activism, but proposed by their controlling shareholders, the banks themselves. The only other CEF in Malaysia, Amanah Small Cap Fund, was liquidated following a mandated vote on its continuation by members, not by any special shareholders proposal to liquidate. As to why COL continues to buy, essentially to arbitrage on the deep discount, which is their primary investment strategy. As for their 'destructive' voting, it is on public record here https://citlon.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/AnnualStewardshipReport3-23.pdf. iCap has not been specifically targeted, just part of their overall approach to tackling the discount problem common with all CEF's.

Posted by Sslee > 2024-01-25 07:53 | Report Abuse

As to why COL continues to buy, essentially to arbitrage on the deep discount.

If I have know that then I would have wrote to COL in year 2020 asking them to arbitrage Insas deep discount.

Previouly I wrote to value partner asking them if they are interest in taking over Insas.

Dear.....
Thank you for your email reply and per our telephone conversation I appreciate your efforts in reaching out to me and forwarded my email to your Senior Director (overlooking VPMY) for his thoughts on my preliminary email.

I understand that Value Partners Group is an Assets Management Company and might not derive synergy with M&A Securities Sdn Bhd (“M&A”) a stock broking company providing trading services, share margin financing and corporate advisory services activities. Insas Credit & Leasing Sdn Bhd (“ICL”) a money lender licensed under the Moneylenders Act, 1951 which has established itself as a boutique structured finance provider to select sophisticated investors and corporations seeking short- and medium-term financing for working capital and investment purposes.

Nevertheless INSAS is still a value driven investment opportunity that when its value is unlocked, the market price/value will appreciate many fold.

Once again thank you

Best Regards

Posted by dumbMoney > 2024-01-25 07:57 | Report Abuse

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7dr5u9efqven4x3/Harimau%20liquidation.pdf?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lzumxlkwc13udqyhj6xwx/GSI-voluntary-liquidation.pdf?rlkey=g3oc7i9kp1rjjv2krrfy35hph&dl=0

Posted by Sslee > 2024-01-25 08:48 | Report Abuse

dumbMoney @Patient Investor. My photo was flashed on the screen during the 2022 AGM. In case you are not aware, one of Bursa's staff in the regulatory department was attacked with acid in the past.
22/01/2024 11:11 PM

The high officer is Senior Vice President Corporate Surveillance and Governance, at that time he is incharge on my many complaints on Red Chip Companies: Xingquan, CSL, Maxwell and Msport.

After my first ever Xinguan AGM and external auditor refuse to answer my after AGM further clarification questions. I purposely attend CSL AGM and put the external auditor on trial on how he do the audit and verification on bank deposit.

I then submitted all the auditor written replied to Bursa Sc and the external auditor was called by Bursa SC for further questioning. The rest is history.

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-25 09:50 | Report Abuse

@SSLee, buy 1 share and attend iCAP AGM to help us witnessing the environment whether COL is as hostile as alleged....😂😂

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-25 09:58 | Report Abuse

dumbMoney pointed out in various cases in Singapore and Msia of CEF liquidation was initiated by the major controlling stakeholders. In those cases the major controlling parties were the banks or managers that running the fund themselves. Patient Investor also pointed out cases of aggressive hedge fund activists were closing down the CEFs.

The timing of Patient Investor re-appearance is quite interesting also. I thought he said it's dumbMoney one man ranting here....he will only come back to check on us in next AGM.....but it's coincides after the first hearing of 20% foreign limit SICDA tinge.....bad sign of iCAP losing the case....now expressing the worries COL will continue to buy towards 33% or even more 50% or 75%????

Posted by Sslee > 2024-01-25 10:40 | Report Abuse

I already learned my lesson to just walk away.

Only invest on those companies that pay dividend and make friend with BOD and management team.

I do not know whether my past actions brought any good or postive change but people and minority shareholders already get hurt because of my action. (Acid attack and Stocks delist from Bursa)

Posted by Patient Investor > 2024-01-25 10:43 | Report Abuse

@dumbmoney
To me COL is a risk, I dont knows what's their motives. and they didnt even attend this year agm to challenge the fund manager.

Thanks for sharing the CEF liquidated by the banks themselves. I see most institution benchmark performance at a short term, by liquidating it can brings 15-30% gain in performance, good for their annual performance.

Can you share what's the NAV CAGR performance of the Singapore CEF and Amanah small cap fund pre liquidation ?

Posted by CharlesT > 2024-01-25 10:48 | Report Abuse

Sslee has shifted his interest fm stock activism to making money fm stock mkt after wasting years of time, money n efforts.

Congrates

Posted by CharlesT > 2024-01-25 10:49 | Report Abuse

Finally he made clear on his objective in stock mkt.

Posted by Patient Investor > 2024-01-25 10:55 | Report Abuse

@dumbMoney

Amanah small cap fund numbers from Bursa
first report of NAV (Jan 2000) : 0.975
Last report of NAV pre liquidation (sep 2007) : 1.15
total dividend payout during the period : 10.5cents

It means in 7 years, it only grows around 25-30%. If I'm shareholder, I would also prefer it to be liquidated.

Posted by Patient Investor > 2024-01-25 10:57 | Report Abuse

@dumbmoney
Since you dedicated so much time in icap forum,
May I ask if you prefer icap to continue managed by mr.Tan? manage by some others? or get liquidated?

Posted by Patient Investor > 2024-01-25 11:00 | Report Abuse

@SSLee its not your fault, those companies are run by china crooks. When KYY promote xingquan, I was staying in China and the brand is no where to be seen, and no one knows about them when i ask around.

Its SC fault allowing them to list on Bursa without proper check and balance.

Posted by Patient Investor > 2024-01-25 11:16 | Report Abuse

@dumbmoney

Based on 2.1 from https://citlon.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/AnnualStewardshipReport3-23.pdf.
Here's my thought:
COL suggests share buy back to narrow the gap. if this is obligated, COL can unload their shares at NAV level via ICAP cash holdings and reap a handsome profit. until the cash runs dry, the stock price will be subjected back to discount level again, then COL can scoop up more shares again and wait for the time where the fund manager to unload stocks to turn into cash, and forced to do buy back again.

Btw, COL own fund performance sucks, I'm not interested to let they appoint someone to the board, are you?

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-25 11:39 | Report Abuse

@Sslee
>>>>>
I already learned my lesson to just walk away.
>>>>>

😂😂

Greed and fear are the only two devils that I know in the stock market.... No matter how many warning shots being fired... When they think there is money to be made... They will ignore you without thinking rationally...

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-25 11:42 | Report Abuse

But as a value investor, not being greedy or fearful, sometimes also can kena shark bait thinking it's too cheap kena swallow alive. 😂😂

Posted by FastMoney666 > 2024-01-25 11:45 | Report Abuse

"Both our operating and investment experience cause us to conclude that turnarounds seldom turn," Buffett wrote in 1979, "and that the same energies and talent are much better employed in a good business purchased at a fair price than in a poor business purchased at a bargain price."

Posted by Sslee > 2024-01-25 12:19 | Report Abuse

What can I do further when facing with below?

Without Prejudice
Dear Mr. Lee,

We refer to your email dated 12 June 2023.

Please take note that that the Company has diligently addressed all relevant queries/questions including issues raised by the respective shareholders during the AGM and written advice post AGM in accordance with the regulatory requirements.

We have reported that all whistle-blower complaints have been thoroughly investigated without evidence of any malpractice and mismanagement. The year end accounts have also been audited by our external auditors. As such, we have nothing more to add.

As part of good corporate governance practice, we hold firm to the separation of ownership and management. All internal investigation reports are the proprietary property of the Company and accordingly we will not respond to your email.

Despite the Company's previous responses to you, and at the AGM, your repeated allegations of malpractice and mismanagement are in our opinion, appear to be with the intent to damage the reputation and integrity of the Company and its Management. This could impede the Company and its Management from carrying out their business in a smooth manner, which could in turn affect the Company’s valuation.

Please be on notice that the Company will not hesitate to take all necessary actions to protect our integrity and the interest of all stakeholders, including all other shareholders at large.

Our rights are reserved.

Thank you.

Corporate Affairs Department
Hengyuan Refining Company Berhad

Posted by dumbMoney > 2024-01-25 12:37 | Report Abuse

Managing price discount is an important part of the fund manager's mandate. How has iCap performed in this when at around 40% discount, stood out as one of the cheapest CEF in the world? Wear it as a badge of honour? Why keep asking why is COL still buying when the other side of the equation is why are retail investors selling and leaving so much value on the table? Is it because they lost faith in management or COL points a gun at them and force them to sell? In the earlier injunction against COL, the company blew a reported 800K legal cost to get the answer to the simple question of where is COL's name in the share register? This round for the foreign shareholding limit, it will be equally expensive to settle the question of where is the prescribed limit in the constitution? Except this time, other than the legal costs, there will be other non-financial consequences for the board of directors to bear if they lose the case. I am keeping my ring side seat to watch this side show.

Posted by Sslee > 2024-01-25 12:48 | Report Abuse

If I am TTB and at 40% discount, I will ask all my employees to collect at 40% discount and then go for voluntary liquidation.

It will be a win win win win for TTB, icapital employees, minority shareholders and COL.

Posted by Sslee > 2024-01-25 12:59 | Report Abuse

损人利已，不为。
利人不利已，可为。
利人利己，应为。

Posted by CharlesT > 2024-01-25 13:24 | Report Abuse

What for?

TTB can now receive rm7m every year till his last breath as long as he still hold his post here...

How much hv TTB received over these years???

Posted by CharlesT > 2024-01-25 13:26 | Report Abuse

Icap established in 2005 or 2006?

Work out the sum

Posted by curiousq > 2024-01-25 13:47 | Report Abuse

OMG!!! so selfish ah? then must pretend as a very good moral and professional people !!

Posted by dumbMoney > 2024-01-25 13:52 | Report Abuse

@CharlesT for 2020, besides paying 6.6 million in fees, the company also had to bear the expenses for the ill conceived dual listing exercise, with nothing to show for it, and knowing nothing about it all those years.

Posted by Sslee > 2024-01-25 14:04 | Report Abuse

If any shareholders are not happy with what TTB was paid and the court case cost and dual listing cost then please bring it up at AGM and hold TTB accountable, responsible and answerable.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2024-01-25 14:09 | Report Abuse

Imagine someone presented a bill for 6.6 million and the BOD just signed the cheque for payment. Who authorised it in the first place, were shareholders informed via Bursa announcements, or approved it as required under the M&A/constitution for any changes in the original listing objectives? This is not buying some foreign shares, which was previously rejected by shareholders via special resolution vote, but listing an entire new fund or the fund itself on some unnamed foreign exchange. Asking such questions is trying to wreck the company? But someone has to do it. Good corporate governance requires check and balance and if COL feels that the board is no doing a proper job, it is well within their rights to vote against their election.

Posted by CharlesT > 2024-01-25 14:18 | Report Abuse

Mkt cap is ard RM390M+ now

Over the years TTB collected RM100M+ I think

So what say u all the short term or long term loyal value investors/ Shareholders?

Posted by dumbMoney > 2024-01-25 14:23 | Report Abuse

COL's performance as a fund manager is only of concern to its investors, and has nothing to do with iCap shareholders, because it is not running iCap. But iCap's performance is of concern to COL as a significant shareholder, that's the difference here. iCap shareholders cannot attend COL AGM and ask questions unless they buy some shares there first. Maybe COL is already under more pressure from its own investors over the failure of its investments in iCap to generate the expected returns.

Posted by dumbMoney > 2024-01-25 14:39 | Report Abuse

On the current foreign limit litigation, why was this not raised in the earlier injunction case against COL, which went through the SC, High Court and Court of Appeal? All the highly paid lawyers missed out this clause in the books all this while and only discovered it recently? You don't need to be a lawyer to ask such a simple question.

Posted by Patient Investor > 2024-01-25 17:08 | Report Abuse

@dumbmoney
the foreign limit ligation is explained in their road show.
Investor who chooses to unload below NAV, doesn’t unload above NAV are both willing to forego values. Else they should go for mutual funds not close and fund. There sets more investor seeking shares below NTA even the company is loaded with cash.
I’m equally not happy with all dual listing fee, but what if it succeed? Didn’t shareholders voted to support the dual listing exercise after all?
I can see you are trying to sidestep certain questions and facts presented. So I won’t want to waste more of your time in discussion.

Posted by Mikecyc > 2024-01-25 17:09 |

Post removed.Why?

Posted by Patient Investor > 2024-01-25 17:14 | Report Abuse

I’ll keep reminding all shareholders over the risk of COL. and for those who want to sell, you can take advantage of the situation by queuing at high price as COL keeps buying even the row with the fund manner. It means they need to buy, so let’s take advantage of it.